[dbrija]

I'm a novice but I'm having a terrible time with my machine as well. I got it just before the start of 2011 and I have yet to cut anything significant with it. A large part of the delay has been my own procrastination but a significant reason my machine is sitting in my garage dormant is because it doesn't work properly. My Z axis is bent or twisted or something. One way or another it doesn't move up and down in a straight line. There is about 10 thousandths of backlash in the X axis and around 3 in the Y. The one shot oiling system is very inconsistent and I'm pretty sure one of the ways on the Y isn't getting oiled. Of the six holes in the base only four of them (the outside corners) line up.

Shipping was delayed then delayed again. I still haven't received my rotary table (I don't recall when I ordered it but my invoice date is 9/30/10).

... Keep in mind that I am a novice and I have run the machine for fewer than ~10 hours. Who knows what a person who knows what they're doing would find during normal use.

I've been trying to get tech support to help me with my Z axis for a few weeks now. So far the "support" for this issue has not been helpful.

I also got support when my Y axis was sticking intermittently. That support was actually better than I expected and I was happy with it - so far the sticking problem seems to be gone.

I haven't written-off the machine yet, but I'm not far from it. There are several things I like about the machine too, but all that is moot if I cannot use it to cut accurately.

You have a 12 month warranty. Don't write it off.

[yooper]

I have been reading a few responses and I can tell you from experiences because I have a NM200 and now also a NM145 mill. I have been running my NM200 for about 2 years and have made many parts and have paid for my machine many times over. I have started using my NM145 and seems to run properly too. Despite some ajustments with the GIBS and general periodic maintenance, my machines have performed very well. Like any machine, understanding it is the key to success with it.

I have read some comments on this forum so far and most comments seem to have little merrit to the performance of the mill but seem more to be complaint sessions because of their lack of practical experience. (yes, I mean practical) I have seen some comments passed on from users with no first hand experiences to make any judgement call.

All the machines in this class are basically the same, and any Tormach, Syil, or Novakon machine can be disassembled and picked to death. My choice to buy my Novakon machines was based on capability and price. I didn't have to tear mine apart to get it producing accurate production parts. The mill design is simple and rugged. Why would anyone rip it appart in the first place?

I believe I have a very good understanding of these mills and would have no problem passing on my experience and knowledge. Don't believe everything you hear...it has been my experience that people that complain like what I have read are not problem solvers, just problems.

If anyone wants to resolve problems, let me know. I will be glad to help.

[newton009]

I would formally like to invite a Novakon, and third party representative to view my findings.

Come and see what I have found.

Regards

[mcphill]

You make some good points, and it appears you got "good" machines. That said, if there is loose casting sand with direct exposure to the bearings on some machines, they will not be long for this world. It is basic and inexpensive requirement to rid raw castings of sand. This point should not be of any debate.

If there are users experiencing poor craftsmanship, and then having little to no support in dealing with the issues, that should weigh heavily on other potential customers' decision making process. Why deal with a company with "known issues" that are not being dealt with when there are other options?

It doesn't matter if "some" people get fantastic customer service and speedy responses if other are "left out in the cold".

[yooper]

Good point.

I have thought about the issue with the debris in the coolant and looking closer at my machine (or any other for that matter) and the potential for sand destroying the ball screws is pretty remote. If this were such a problem the metal chips would be a bigger problem to these surfaces from the coolant than the sand. Who knows, maybe I could chisel some slag and sand from mine, but if I have to hammer it off, I doubt it will ever be a problem. I am too busy making parts. I really doubt there is 5 pounds of sand scraped off like the customer said. Sounds like a fishing story to me.

I have talked to Novakon several times over the past and was able to get reasonable responses. I also noticed lately they added a new Engineer to the staff. Sounds like they are responding to the new inquiries and needs. Pound for pound, I got results when I worked with them. I know they respond all hours of the night and are very dedicated to this industry.

As far as the support that I have seen, Novakon does well.

[Sepult]

Good point.

I have thought about the issue with the debris in the coolant and looking closer at my machine (or any other for that matter) and the potential for sand destroying the ball screws is pretty remote. If this were such a problem the metal chips would be a bigger problem to these surfaces from the coolant than the sand. Who knows, maybe I could chisel some slag and sand from mine, but if I have to hammer it off, I doubt it will ever be a problem. I am too busy making parts. I really doubt there is 5 pounds of sand scraped off like the customer said. Sounds like a fishing story to me.

I have talked to Novakon several times over the past and was able to get reasonable responses. I also noticed lately they added a new Engineer to the staff. Sounds like they are responding to the new inquiries and needs. Pound for pound, I got results when I worked with them. I know they respond all hours of the night and are very dedicated to this industry.

As far as the support that I have seen, Novakon does well.

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

[mcphill]

So well stated. Do you mind if I plagiarise some of this post for another "discussion" I am currently engaged in?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bobcad...24_dongle.html

[ihavenofish]

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

he went over the line i think yeah. but i think his point was that people make mountains out of mole hills and then refuse to climb them.

from everything posted, newton is complaining rightly about a machine with sand and debris in and around critical areas. thats important sure, but unless hes got alot more to say and show, it does seem in mole hill territory.

my only objection is the vague way hes portraing the issue as it confuses people thinking of buying. it also prevents other users from actually trying to help solve the issues. i like to see cnczone as a place to get help with problems, not just unconstructively rant about them.

[izzy88]

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

I have been reading these forums in my continued research of my next mill purchase. newton009's findings definitely bring up concerns with these machines but I wonder if machines from Tormach, Syil and Smithy all have similar issues, I would tend to say yes to a certain degree. I have yet to see a detailed tear down of these other mills like the one Joebean did. They are after all made in China, meant as an affordable means of producing parts so I don't expect them to be on the same level as a $50000 Haas.

My problem with posts like yours is they serve only to bash a company that is obviously committed to growing in this industry. Yes, there are issues as there are with all machines but of the 4 posts you have made to date, 3 have been some sort of negative post against Novakon.

I understand your decision in not buying one of their machines, that's your choice but move on to being a positive contributor to these forums. Do you simply like to rant?

I've had dealings with Chinese factories as well and I know the challenges it presents. What we expect in terms of quality workmanship is not always theirs. I learned this the hard way starting up my own business years back and often what you get is vastly different from what you signed up for.

I'm still undecided about my purchase, but it will be between Novakon and Tormach. I'm hoping Novakon continues to get better as they do seem to be making a concerted effort in that regard.

[dbrija]

I have been reading these forums in my continued research of my next mill purchase. newton009's findings definitely bring up concerns with these machines but I wonder if machines from Tormach, Syil and Smithy all have similar issues, I would tend to say yes to a certain degree. I have yet to see a detailed tear down of these other mills like the one Joebean did. They are after all made in China, meant as an affordable means of producing parts so I don't expect them to be on the same level as a $50000 Haas.

My problem with posts like yours is they serve only to bash a company that is obviously committed to growing in this industry. Yes, there are issues as there are with all machines but of the 4 posts you have made to date, 3 have been some sort of negative post against Novakon.

I understand your decision in not buying one of their machines, that's your choice but move on to being a positive contributor to these forums. Do you simply like to rant?

I've had dealings with Chinese factories as well and I know the challenges it presents. What we expect in terms of quality workmanship is not always theirs. I learned this the hard way starting up my own business years back and often what you get is vastly different from what you signed up for.

I'm still undecided about my purchase, but it will be between Novakon and Tormach. I'm hoping Novakon continues to get better as they do seem to be making a concerted effort in that regard.

I think the key here is that yes, all the machines are made in China, but its how well the company oversees that process, and gets a realistic QC process in place. There are bound to be initial pains in that area, but how quickly they get resolved and how those that escape QC are handled by the company go a long way toward making prospective customers feel better.

Its even worse if the machine is cast in one place or is built as a manual machine, and final assembly/CNC/final test in another. That means it failed to get caught twice. I forget if the Novakon machines are 100% complete in China or get finished elsewhere.

As far as other machines having problems, and the lack of teardown evidence, I could naively say its because the other machines are better and there are no such issues, or that owners of those machines don't post the issues for fear of flaming as was already mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I admit a large part of my choice was in fact based on research of issues in various forums. When you see more teardown type threads about machine A versus B, C, and D, it does get your attention.

[newton009]

Take it or not it. I simply don't care. I'm not new to casting and or machine tools.

Just reporting my findings... do with it as you will.

I am still after 8 months working to fix the problems... including, at one point, working with Khai. They don't return my emails and the date for my replacement parts has long passed.

Novakon has no control, or concern over quality at the factory.

As I have stated... more to come.

Regards

[yooper]

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

I never said it would not destroy a bearing or ball screw, but with all the covers to keep the coolant off the sensitive parts, debris is not much of a factor from the coolant point of view as was originally stated by the customer.

If you bought a new car, would you rip open the engine just to see what the factory did? I would ride it until I had a reason to look. He never even tried to run the mill with the first part. He tore it apart just to see. In my book, this would void the warranty, he is lucky Novakon did anything at all. I would not have.

Enough of this for me. I am moving on with anyone with valid questions or concerns. I am still making parts.

[MichaelHenry]

I have yet to see a detailed tear down of these other mills like the one Joebean did.

There are a few pictures of my experience disassembling, moving, and re-assembling a Tormach PCNC 1100 here.

Tormach PCNC 1100 CNC Mill

This was an early mill (a 3-digit S/N of their Series I mill) and the castings were generally in good shape, I thought, and needed very little in the way of cleanup other than cosmoline removal.

Mike

[newton009]

There are a few pictures of my experience disassembling, moving, and re-assembling a Tormach PCNC 1100 here.

Tormach PCNC 1100 CNC Mill

This was an early mill (a 3-digit S/N of their Series I mill) and the castings were generally in good shape, I thought, and needed very little in the way of cleanup other than cosmoline removal.

Mike

That's funny,

I discovered your site and sent a photo from it to Novakon demonstrating how the underside (Tormach) of the base should be. Proof not all Chinese machines are the same... differences in quality control.

Side note to all followers of this thread. I was assured that taking apart the mill would not void my warranty. I did so especially after Joebean's posts. I also suspect that some of the naysayers are simply Novakon employees posting privately.

I took the machine apart because I knew what to expect. I understand some imports may need a little work to set up, but not what I have found. Yet, I'm still working to fix the problem with or without Novakon.

Regards

[david12348]

a

[mcphill]

b

[ihavenofish]

f for fail.

[newton009]

[QUOTE=yooper;920218]Good point.

I have thought about the issue with the debris in the coolant and looking closer at my machine (or any other for that matter) and the potential for sand destroying the ball screws is pretty remote. If this were such a problem the metal chips would be a bigger problem to these surfaces from the coolant than the sand. Who knows, maybe I could chisel some slag and sand from mine, but if I have to hammer it off, I doubt it will ever be a problem. I am too busy making parts. I really doubt there is 5 pounds of sand scraped off like the customer said. Sounds like a fishing story to me.



You do understand that sand and slag are an order of magnitude more abrasive than "metal chips". I will gladly send you the 8 pounds of crap I scraped from the base of my machine. (yes... out of curiosity I weighed it... 8 pounds!!!!!!!!!!) Your welcome to dump it in to your coolant system and see what happens. Not in my mill!

Believe me I'd rather be making swarf.

More info to follow :-)

Regards

[MetalShavings]

From the looks of that pile of crud you scrapped off your mill, it appears that your particular machine must have been assembled on a late Friday afternoon just before a major Chinese holiday weekend or a very early Monday morning after a hard weekend of heavy drinking.

As a newbie getting ready to buy my first CNC Mill I hate hearing about things like this. Not only because it tends to make one alot more apprehensive about shelling out your hard earned money on what may turn out to be nothing but problems, It's also the fact that if you do encounter problems and come onto a forum like this to describe these problems and seek answers, you get crapped on by those who've not had to deal with these types of problems.

I had ruled out Novakon as a choice for my first CNC purchase long before stumbling onto this thread. My reason for doing so had nothing to do with any of the problems encountered by the original poster of this thread. I did my research and decided on another maker; nothing any more complicated than that.

I can't imagine anything more frustrating than having to work through an ordeal like this with the seller on one end and on the other end; an otherwise satisfied bunch of buyers of the same machine making me feel like even more of a fool for having turned to them for assistance.

I hope everything works out in the end.

If it were me, if or when this situation ever got resolved I'd sell it off as quickly as possible just to get some closure, then I'd move on a slightly wiser man.

But that's just me. I know there are some on this forum with far more patience and know-how than this newbie could ever scrape together.

MetalShavings

[marrt]

Newton009,

Thanks for reporting your experience. I'm sorry you paid thousands for a machine in such poor shape that it required immediate reconditioning before use. And I cannot believe some people are defending Novakon just because they received a machine in good working order. It's how companies handle exceptions that determine their long term reputation (e.g., Grizzly's excellent reputation for customer service).

Novakon should have immediately replaced the machine. Instead of doing the right thing, it will cost them a lot in lost reputation. I can't imagine anyone reading this thread would buy a Novakon when clear alternatives exist from companies with a good reputation for customer service. In the internet age, a company can't get away with crap like this.

Good luck to you and thanks again for posting.