[HLF Ordnance]

Hey guys,

I own a small shop and I was thinking about this today.

What would you rather buy to start a production shop, why?

Three Haas VF1
or
Two Haas VF2-SS
or
One Haas EC-400

Personally I am leaning toward 2 VF2-SSs

Thanks in advance,
Kyle

[WallyL7]

Depends on your idea of a "Production shop"...

My idea of it would tell me "None of the above".

[HLF Ordnance]

Okay thanks for your input, I guess. Production shop, job shop, start-up shop, I dont care.

It's just a hypothetical guys... I know its heavily dependent on run time on each machine and a number of other things but just look at it like, "do I want 3 of the GOOD, two of the BETTER, or one of the BEST?"

*disclaimer: I am not implying that the EC-400 is the best (just in case a negative troll comes wondering about)

[WallyL7]

IMO the closer Haas gets to the same price as Mazak, Doosan, etc...the further away I would get from buying one.

Haas is a horrible "production" type machine (lights out or unmanned operation is a pretty steep learning curve and even then pretty risky). They are, however decent for very low quantity job shop or prototype shop type environment where tolerances are not expected to be better than .001" over night or after lunch etc.

They are not bad machines...just not in the same ball park as most of the others in regards to real production...

[HLF Ordnance]

This is about the three Haas machines I mentioned. NO OTHER MACHINES SHALL BE CONSIDERED ON THIS THREAD. I am not trying to get any advice, I am just curious.

Does this need to happen every time someone brings up a "vs" thread?

BTW, I hear you and I completely understand; I have a Doosan that has one job and a VF3 that has 4 jobs.

[txcncman]

I have found that there is no one machine brand or one machine model that is the best in every single category. The machines on the floor really need to be what is best for the customer base and type of parts being produced - or - the customer base and type of parts produced need to be tailored to the machines on hand. Personally, I would start at whatever level of machine(s) I thought I could afford with cash on hand. And right now, that means probably a variety of used machines that would include brands not even mentioned.

[Geof]

If you have one machine if it is down for some reason you are not making anything; with three machines one can be down but the other two are still producing.

I you have one machine it is impossible to to load one machine while the other is running; while you are loading your single machine it is not making parts.

If you have one machine and you are busy it is impossible to throw in a quick run for a good customer without shutting down your other customer's work.

Probably the best compromise is two machines to get maximum versatility/productivity.

[Ydna]

I agree, I think a pair of anything would be nice to have just for the in-and-out adjustments to the production schedule that can pop up. You'd also be able to double down on the same workpiece if needed.

The horizontals are nice for loading up large amounts of work at once, possibly not a "nights out" operation but still you can get up to 6 pallets (depends on the workpiece of course). Although like he said above, getting all those workpieces up and running is only after a lot of beforehand setup time.

Personally with the kind of work we do here, there's one workhorse VF2 that does most of the work, another older VF that we use for plastics. I use a bridgeport CNC to do things like fixture holes, facing, etc and I'd like to replace it with a faster dedicated machine someday. We also do a lot of cosmetic surfacing but it's kindof overkill for the equipment, which warrants a smaller faster machine just to do that during much of the day. I don't have the workload to justify it right now but it'd be nice to find onesself in that problem in the future

[underthetire]

Since Haas only....

Id say 1 vf1
And 2 vf2 non SS.

[Delw]

If you have one machine if it is down for some reason you are not making anything; with three machines one can be down but the other two are still producing.

I you have one machine it is impossible to to load one machine while the other is running; while you are loading your single machine it is not making parts.

If you have one machine and you are busy it is impossible to throw in a quick run for a good customer without shutting down your other customer's work.

Probably the best compromise is two machines to get maximum versatility/productivity.

what he said ^^^^^^^^

I have 3 machines and I can tell you when I have a hot job come in the vf2ss is the fastest thing to set up compared to the rest.
I use my vf2ss for quick jobs the others run production work.
My choice would be 2 vf2 ss maybe 3 of the same year with the same options.
I am dreading having differnt machines with out the same options. but were getting ready to change that. been looking at a horizontal but were going to stick with verticals.
Most of my jobs on the vf2ss I can set up in 5-10 mins mainly due to the probe and I have a ton of tool holders.
what ever machine you buy a probe is a MUST. set ups are fast. our vf2ss haas runs 4-8 different jobs a day doing it on the fadal I could only do 3-4 per day if that.
tomorrow I have 13 1pc jobs to get out. all the tools are set and all the programs are made. along with 2 vices and a collet nose.
only thing I would change is 2 vf4ss or vf3ss maybe with a pallet changer.
Getting too old to pull this 210 rotary table on and off every other day
Delw

[Kool Parts]

Does this need to happen every time someone brings up a "vs" thread?

Yes almost %100 percent of the time. :tired: But very seldom by the guy that actually has to scratch out the check..

But back on point. I understand you line of thinking here. The horizontal is so much more flexible in how you can fixture parts and ways to machine them..but is so sloooow to set up new parts. The all have the "drive in window" access :bs: And they are much more money up front compared to verticals.

I went to IMTS with the sole mission to determine what is better for me..six pallet horizontal or numerous, very small verticals with system 3r or Erowa pallet changers on each.
For me and my situation it came out to a bunch of small verticals.
YMMV
Gary

[WallyL7]

Yes almost %100 percent of the time. :tired: But very seldom by the guy that actually has to scratch out the check..

Checkbooks aside, although you seem to have many posts regarding checks:tired:

It is always funny to me when someone starts a string then dictates a strict policy of how to post on it...:violin:

This string will be around forever so if it doesn't fit your little parameters, then just ignore it. Someone else will see it and perhaps realize what I say is true, if not exactly what the OP is looking for.

If all the OP is looking for is a poll...then MAKE this string a poll so people actually can only pick one of the list. Otherwise you may get some reply's that are perhaps beyond your own checkbooks.


No offense to Geof, but that just isn't true. The only "single" machine he was looking at was the EC400 and you can absolutely load and set it up while it cuts other parts. Personally, the minimills seem like a better option than VF-1's (at least from what I've read here), and the VF-2's are pretty limited on travel so I'd go with the 3's...but there I go with my personal opinion again...

Seriously, though...if you can change this string so it has the poll thing I'd pick one. That way you have exactly what you are looking for.

[HLF Ordnance]

Wally,

I understand what you are doing.

Also, I think I am going to make a poll!

-Kyle

[Geof]

.......The horizontal is so much more flexible in how you can fixture parts and ways to machine them..but is so sloooow to set up new parts.....

Small verticals with rotary fixture like I have developed are a good subsitute for horizontals for small quantity runs of many parts that repeat regularly.

.......No offense to Geof, but that just isn't true. The only "single" machine he was looking at was the EC400 and you can absolutely load and set it up while it cuts other parts

Yeah, okay, I fell down there. But while you are spending hours setting it up it is not make parts.

[Kool Parts]

Checkbooks aside, although you seem to have many posts regarding checks:tired:

Glad you are following me..maybe you will learn something..I doubt it. :tired:
Gary

[WallyL7]

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