[ihavenofish]

well, after many revisions and rethinks, im just about finalised on my ATC spindle.

i ended up blending my needs for a cnc mill, and a cnc router into one package. this is now geared to smaller mills and routers with higher axis speeds.

cant tell you too much of whats lurking inside, but heres the specs:

- 80mm bore (drop in fit for novakon nm145 and tormach 1100 and 770).
- ISO25 taper.
- brushless AC integrated motor with drive, wiring and power supply.
- pc speed control.
- 0.8NM torque continuous with passive cooling.
- 12000rpm.
- manual captured "no bearing load" drawbar.
- P5 grade dual angular contact nose bearings.
- steel nose.
- light weight and super short length of 178mm nose to top.

modular options:

- spindle nose air purge to keep bearings clean.
- air oil bearing lubrication for increased speed to 24000rpm.
- P4 grade ceramic hybrid bearings for top speed of 40000rpm.
- aluminium nose for better bearing heat dissipation (for routers only)
- fan cooled 90mm square mounting block for increased torque of 1NM (for routers).
- water jacket with 1gpm micro pump and radiator for increased torque of 1.4NM (cartridge).
- water block with 1gpm micro pump and radiator for increased torque of 1.4NM (for routers).
- hydraulic "no bearing load" drawbar release.
- tool release air purge.
- remote manual hydraulic drawbar release lever.
- remote air over hydraulic PC controlled drawbar release (ATC).
- rotary union and seal kit for through spindle coolant.
- square 4 bolt or round 6 bolt flanges.
- encoder for orientation and rigid tapping.

i think ive managed to cover almost everything

basically, youd configure the spindle speed and bearings when you order it, then choose the fittings. some fittings can be added aftermarket, like the power drawbar kits. this means you can start with a low price manual tool change option then upgrade when needed.

im trying to keep the price cheap - likely the lowest priced and smallest "milling" grade ATC spinlde out there.

soooo, any thoughts? did i miss anything? im going to link this to the router people as well.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Where on earth would anyone get ISO25 tool holders? Even ISO30s are kinda hard to come by. Google finds next to nothing for ISO25, and what little there is, is quite expensive (e.g. - Maritool has only an ISO25 collet chuck holder - not including the collet chuck itself, but basically just the ISO25 "shank" - for $107!).

Regards,
Ray L.

[ihavenofish]

Where on earth would anyone get ISO25 tool holders? Even ISO30s are kinda hard to come by. Google finds next to nothing for ISO25, and what little there is, is quite expensive (e.g. - Maritool has only an ISO25 collet chuck holder - not including the collet chuck itself, but basically just the ISO25 "shank" - for $107!).

Regards,
Ray L.

uuuuh, no. maritool has an iso25 er20 chuck for $107 (was $99 before the dollar colapsed). in contrast bt30 and 40 holders are $80-$90. so the difference is fairly small, particularly with them being balanced to very high speeds. its also not too different from what tormach charges for their ER chuck (although you can get cheaper clones).

if i do this spindle i will offer a line of holders to go with it. this spindle will be the basis of a retail turnkey router, so tool holders will need to be on easy supply.

i think if the spindle became popular and others began adopting the taper, it would bring the price way down. everything from 6krpm balanced chinese er chucks under $50 to $300 technics holders rated at 60000rpm.

[ger21]

I've been using ISO 30 holders for almost 15 years. They're very easy to find at commercial woodworking tooling suppliers, as they, along with HSK have been the standard in the woodworking industry.

I just checked, though, and none of my normal suppliers sell ISO25.

However, as long as they are available somewhere, I don't see it as a big deal.

As for the $100+ price tag, that's just the price you pay for an ATC spindle.

What's the KW rating of the motor?

Any chance for an 18,000 rpm version without needing the air oil lube setup?

[ihavenofish]

What's the KW rating of the motor?

Any chance for an 18,000 rpm version without needing the air oil lube setup?

i dont have the exact curves of the motors options yet. im basing the numbers on a "stock" model at the moment wheras the final will be custom wound for each speed to optimise where maximum power is.

12000rpm, est 1.4nm cont water, 2.5nm peak. 1.76kw/3.1kw
24000rpm, est 0.7nm cont water, 1.25nm peak. 1.76kw/3.1kw
40000rpm, est 0.25nm cont water, 0.4nm peak. 1.05kw/1.68kw

the steel bearings are good with high preload to 12krpm with grease. they might hit 18k with light preload. ceramics with grease will hit 18000-24000rpm depending on preload. they cost a fotune however.

[inventor83]

Just a few questions I have about the spindle.

When you say "Brushless AC integrated motor" is this an induction motor or does it have magnets on the rotor?

Would you concider making a motorless version? For me personally I have been looking for an spindle to fit onto xzero's machine. I have many motors and options to choose from. Just finding a suitable spindle is tough.

Matt

[Hans_G]

I'm interested. I'll be looking for a spindle in the month or so, was planning on a 1.5kw or 2.2kw chinese spindle. What's the time frame for this being available?

[ihavenofish]

Just a few questions I have about the spindle.

When you say "Brushless AC integrated motor" is this an induction motor or does it have magnets on the rotor?

Would you concider making a motorless version? For me personally I have been looking for an spindle to fit onto xzero's machine. I have many motors and options to choose from. Just finding a suitable spindle is tough.

Matt

its an electrospindle, the rotor is inside glued to the shaft. you cant simply attach another motor, its not belt driven or done with a coupling. the motors themselves arent super expensive and are made in the US, and there are many many winding options. making a belt drive option wont make it cheaper, and will create performance issue. the only thing you might gain is low end torque, which the iso25 holder cant handle much of anyway.

also, its not an induction motor, its got magnets. its the same as you find in a high end servo motor - it IS a servo actualy when used with the encoder and uses a servo drive. basically, imagine a servo with a tapered spindle nose instead of a keyed shaft.

[ihavenofish]

I'm interested. I'll be looking for a spindle in the month or so, was planning on a 1.5kw or 2.2kw chinese spindle. What's the time frame for this being available?

theres no time frame at the moment. it needs to be thoroughly tested once the prototype is done. i might start preorders when theres something to show, but i dont want any delivery fiascos so i wont do it til i know its on track. the big hold up for me is the shaft, which i cant make in house at the moment. th 12k spindle motor is a "stock" item, and the drive for it is in the works (made in canada).

being high end and canadian made, thse wont be as cheap as the chinese ones, but id like to have them on par or less money than the 1.5hp colombo spindle/drive as a base (12k, manual drawbar, air or water block). then you add on the extra feature.

colombos cheapest atc ready kit is a bit over $6000 ( spindle, drive, air system and wiring) and is light duty wood only. i want mine to be ALOT less, possibly half that for the basic 12krpm with drawbar and pc control.

also because im aiming at a tuely retail market, i want mine to be complete, it will come with everything, no DIY or "find it yourself" aspects. ill be making plastic tool grippers and trays for routers and ive started a geneva 8 station carousel design for mills.

[gearsoup]

Well, this is quite interesting. I definitely want to follow this and see where it leads...

[Starleper1]

I've been using ISO 30 holders for almost 15 years. They're very easy to find at commercial woodworking tooling suppliers, as they, along with HSK have been the standard in the woodworking industry.

I just checked, though, and none of my normal suppliers sell ISO25.

However, as long as they are available somewhere, I don't see it as a big deal.

As for the $100+ price tag, that's just the price you pay for an ATC spindle.

What's the KW rating of the motor?

Any chance for an 18,000 rpm version without needing the air oil lube setup?

Mind sharing some of these vendors?

[ger21]

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[ihavenofish]

found me some prototype parts. skf nose bearings, 15k max speed motor, power supply and drive. also found a small water pump and reservoir. and ive got an arduino which will act as the brain monitoring temperatures and water flow and drawbar actuation.

also found an R8 chuck which will alow me to turn the spindle shaft from 4140HTSR on my mill. RC32 hardness should be fine for the first test unit.

also redid the drawbar cylinder a bit to make it strong enough to be cast in A356 aluminium for production. previously it would have cracked so i had is specced in steel.

shortened the drawbar throw as well, which in turned allowed a shorter spring stack and piston.

im going to make a rack mount style "drive" that houses everything external to the spindle. this way you just connect the 220v power, air compressor, USB for control/config and parallel for mach3/emc signals.

fun fun.

im arranging things into 4 base kits.

- aluminium passivly cooled block spindle - low cost for small routers.
- aluminium water cooled block spindle - for smaller and medium routers.
- steel passively cooled cartridge - low cost for small mills.
- steel water cooled cartridge - for small high performance mills.

each one has a different set of applicable options for motors, drawbars, bearings, encoders, etc. youll notice i got rid of the fan cooling. it cause lots of problems with the manual drawbar (access), so the motor will just be a little derated (and quieter, cheaper and lower maintenence).

no new pictures cause visually it looks the same, hehe.

[TOTALLYRC]

Just out of curiosity,
Would it be possible to get it with an ISO20 nose?

One of my mills takes those and they would be great for all the work I do with my router.

[ihavenofish]

Just out of curiosity,
Would it be possible to get it with an ISO20 nose?

One of my mills takes those and they would be great for all the work I do with my router.

hmmmmmmm.

the short answer is no. the long answer is... nooooooooooooooooooo.

hehe, j/k. it would require a new drawbar, shaft and gripper to do. youd pay alot extra for the priveledge, where you could buy 6-8 iso25 holders instead for the same money.

hmm, i guess that makes the long answer yeeeeees.

i have a 60k rpm spindle on the drawing board as well. this was intended to be iso15 though. this is for tiny tools in aluminium, like a datron machine. that spindle will likely cost a good bit more than the iso25 though due to ceramic bearings and precision balance requirements.

[LongRat]

While I have no requirement for a spindle like this, good luck with it. I hope it goes well and you sell plenty. If nothing else it might spur on manufacturers to spec slightly higher speed spindles in their cheap mills, god knows they need it.

[ihavenofish]

i think some makers are adopting the er chuck high speed spindles. most of these are light duty and intended for wood cutting. these dont help with ATC functon either.

the problem with a spindle like mine is usually price and size. ive overcome the size problem for the most part, making it small enough to drop into standard benchtop gear. hopefully ill be able to bring the price to a point where it could be added to a stock mill and not throw the price way out of proportion.

if tormach or novakon or haas want to spec it oem, this would help drive the price down further and popularise the tooling making it cheaper as well.

the air cooled block version should do well with small cnc routers like the xzero.

right now im trying to find a small inexpensive air/oil system. that or decipher the parts needed and build my own.

[amyers]

Just out of curiosity,
Would it be possible to get it with an ISO20 nose?

One of my mills takes those and they would be great for all the work I do with my router.

USOVO already sells lots of types of spindles and toolchangers including sk20 for different types of machines.
USOVO.de - Werkzeugwechsel Spindel fr Sherline&UniMill (the CoolTool)
AM

[ihavenofish]

neat stuff there, but thats not exactly what hes looking for. those are sk15 adapters from small hand held die grinder type spindles.

[amyers]

look around the site, they have size from 10 to 30 and lots more stuff if you look around.
AM