[Gabe Newell]

Gabe ... doesn't using a propane torch to shrink fit harden, soften or make the tool holder go brittle

The induction heating element in a shrink fit unit and a the flame from a propane torch do exactly the same thing to the tool holder. Heating isn't used to soften or harden the tool holder, it is used to expand the tool holder (since the tool holder and the tool have different rates of expansion).

Should You be using Shrink Fit Tool Holders? | The CNC Report

H13 steel, used in Techniks and Parlec shrink fit holders, should be able to undergo a lot of thermal cycles (as opposed to 8620 used in typical non-shrink fit tool holders).

However, propane torches probably won't work with a HSS tool, as you need to heat the holder a lot faster since HSS is closer in thermal expansion to a typical holder than carbide is. This is why you will see heat shrink units that either work with carbide (cheaper) or carbide and HSS (more expensive, faster).

[SDS510]

The induction heating element in a shrink fit unit and a the flame from a propane torch do exactly the same thing to the tool holder. Heating isn't used to soften or harden the tool holder, it is used to expand the tool holder (since the tool holder and the tool have different rates of expansion).

Thanks Gabe, I understood it wasn't to harden or soften the material but would imagine the process it not dis-similar to that used to harden steel albeit without the quenching.

I would think getting the tool in wouldn't be a problem but removing it should it break would be. I guess given the amount of work I intend doing maybe an alternative to buying would be paying a shop to remove them when required.

I am considering the shrink fit for the finishing tools hence breaking and wear should be minimised anyway.

[tooldude328]

SDS510,
The fitting tool I use is a propane torch. You really don't need an expensive shrink fitter.
The only advantage of the shrink fitters is they heat more uniformly.
We have 1 made by Haimer and I think it's just as fast to heat them with the torch to put the tool in.

[extanker59]

Our programmable coolant nozzle has been plugged for the last 6 months. Nozzle cap unmovable without a lot of force that could bend the whole thing. Anyway, the thing is, I haven't missed it. The 4 manual lines get good coverage. Maybe if I had a really long drill I would miss it.

[gizmo_454]

Ah yes...the venerable programmable coolant nozzle. Is it handy? Yes. Is it necessary? No. We have a Mini Mill and a VF2SS. The Mini is less the programmable nozzle and the VF2SS has it. 3/4 of the time, I leave the programmable one off. The 4 regular ports provide ample coolant, and adjustment to cover darn near any tool. If it is not enough coverage, loc-line is a cool thing... They have splitters! In combination with the High volume pump option on our Mini, I have split the single line into 3 for better coverage, (front, back, side, and different lengths). Even running 3 lines off of one port, I still have to run it at about 50-60% of it's flow to keep from getting wet. Based on what I have seen there, and my experience with our VF2SS, you could easily add a few splitters and nozzles to the machine to get the coolant where you need it for different tools and situations. I guess that is my biggest problem with the programmable nozzle...it's never pointing where it needs to be. It's great if you only mill on the right side of a part. If you mill on the left side, and the part has any height to it, you might as well be milling dry since it only shoots from the right and the tool is hidden from the stream by the part.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can buy a ton of loc-line stuff, tooling, software, etc. for the cost of the programmable coolant nozzle.

Having said that, would I buy one? Yes, if I was not trying to stay within budget constraints. No if I needed those funds for tooling and/or software. If you are limited to a budget and this is your first CNC mill, I would personally bypass that option and buy more tooling. Loc-line is cheap and you can add more very cheaply. Tooling, on the other hand, can be expensive and you never seem to have enough to do the job at hand.

Right or wrong, that's my $0.02. Good luck and have fun!

Mike

[behindpropeller]

I agree with Mike on the coolant nozzle.

If you ever have a 4th axis on your machine you will take it off.

I put a used one on our TM2 and for an open machine it is a great addition since you are not spraying the shank of the tool. For a closed machine you can just use loc line and make it work.

[SDS510]

Hi all ... again great feedback.

I have just come back from our manafacturing expo which was very worthwhile. With regards to the machine I managed to negotiate a better price but then it occurred to me, am I specing up a base machine to the point where I could buy a more advanced machine for the same price ???

So where are we ... VF-2 with the following options:

• 1 MB Memory
• 15” Colour LCD Screen
• USB Port
• Memory Lock Key switch
• Rigid Tapping
• 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System
• Programmable coolant nozzle
• 10,000 rpm Spindle
• Auto Chip Auger
• Export Packing
• Power Failure Detection Module
• Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System
• 24 + 1 Side Mount ATC

I asked the question and a VF-2SS with the same options was $500 cheaper and nearly $12k less than pre-show prices :wee: and I get 12k direct drive 30hp spindle and increased rapids.

This is a no brainer isn't it ??? or am I missing something ???

Thanks .. Paul

[extanker59]

Are you going to be doing any 3D work? There's an earlier thread about the ss machines not doing such a great job in 3D.
We just bought a VM-2 to, hopefully, make better 3D parts. Our VF-2ss is not so great. Leaves a lot of hand finishing to be done.
How about small tools? Maybe a VF-2 (no ss) but with a 12000 spindle?

[SDS510]

3D yes (or to be honest with myself 2 - 2.5 at least during the learning phase) ... mold work no.

What makes the SS give a worse finish than a standard VF-2, I thought with the direct drive motor the finish would be better.

This is pushing the budget already so a VM would be lovely but the price would be prohibitive ... not that I have asked.

I guess the down side to the SS is also the power requirement ofr the 30HP spindle which in all realitity probably isn't needed but would assume adds to the resale value.

[Kool Parts]

Your list is looking good. Its frustrating because as you look at the list you "need" ...everything..
I asked the same question yesterday about going to the VM or building one up. He said he had never compared them like that..but it would be good exercise.
I will let you know how that goes.
I also asked about surface finish and the SS model. He said they had addressed that with the new models..
But for my app the VM / VF-5TR makes more sense anyway.

I know the side mount is expensive but really a great option and 4 more tools to boot. Also don't pass on the programmable coolant.

You also asked about the OneCNC CAD/CAM package. I can give it a big thumbs up. I find it very easy to use.
Gary

[SDS510]

Well guys I'm just getting myself confused ... so easy to get lured into the "do you want fries with that" syndrome.

[Pondo]

If you keep getting answers from people that don't use their machines for exactly the same jobs you will be running, then you will not get the correct answers for your situation.
For example:
IF I had bought the 1 Meg of memory and tried to run everything off of the jump drive, I'd be screwed. The programs I run have a lot of 3D surfacing and the transfer rate from the drive can't keep up. The machine gets "data starved" and I would have to run it at a much lower feed.
IF I had bought the 25K spindle, it would have been a waste because I would have had to get better balanced or shrink fit tooling to use it fully.

You need to define exactly what you will be using the machine for and get all the options that you need and only the options that you need. There is no "perfect" machine, just the perfect machine for it's intended use.

[SDS510]

Hi Pondo your comment is fair and one that I have been mindful of. I think my list has been kept fairly basic with the exception of the SMATC which I believe is the right choice based on work I want to do in the future.

I guess I have looked at specifically what I want to do now and where I want to progress my business too. As I don't want to have to make another purchase in a few years time I need to cover my bases now.

[Pondo]

I do hope you end up getting the right machine for you. If there are questions, this is definitely the right place to get answers.
I just saw the word "confused" in your last post and and wanted to simplify things for you if I could. Thinking of what you specifically need Vs. what the best machine is.
Sometimes a different perspective gives you a clearer view.

[SDS510]

Pondo your advise is sound and appreciated.

I guess I am at the point where the optioned VF-2 less SMATC will meet my needs. However the for an extra $8k for the SMATC provides (based on previous posts here and elsewhere):

1. a more reliable solution.
2. gets the tool changer out of the work zone when using 4 axis and long reach tools.

This then puts me into the SS, there be it my dilemma.

PS. The $8k would go a long way toward software and tooling however based on financing the unit the additional payments are, in the grand scheme of things, minimal.

[Kool Parts]

SDS510,
Yea that tool changer is a tough one. But you nailed it..if you run a 4th axis you have to be extremely careful. My first Haas that I bought I didn't have the side mt choice, and I always have a 4th on the table.

But the real killer is, with the side mt it will put the tool in any pocket. With the carousel the tool has to go back to the same pocket. Go to you tube and watch videos. A tool change takes forever if the next tool half way around the carousel.
Now you try to program so that wont happen but you cant avoid it all the time. That lag adds up every day, year after year.

Also on the memory after going through that nightmare with fanuc..memory is cheap. I will never buy another machine without max memory.
Pondo brings up a good point with transfer rate.

I should know about the.. building one up vs buying the SS or Mold model today. I also found out that after a certain dollar amount of options you get a discount off of the options. So that will play into the decision.
I will let you know the results.
Gary

[Geof]

I have been reading and not commenting but now I think it is time.

I have three VF2s, a VF0, a truckload of Super MiniMills and a few other Haas machines. Some are permanently fitted with vises some with rotaries. Some are used almost exclusively for repeat production some are used most of the time for product development or making tooling.

I think all the advice/opinions posted is/are worthwhile but as someone pointed out people have different use patterns and this biases their advice. My advice is look at the big picture and try not to limit your options.

One way to do this is to think of the options as two lists: Things you would really really like to have, and things that can be retrofitted. Then focus on the options that are in the really^2 list but not in the other.

For example the Side Mount Tool Changer, is a really really like item but it cannot be retrofitted. The 4th axis wiring, and the rotary itself, fall into both lists so omitting them from the original purchase does not limit what can be added at a later date when a need exists and more money is available.

Also don't allocate an overly large fraction of your original budget to tooling. Yes you are going to eventually spend a good portion of the machine cost on tooling but you don't need to do that on day one. Don't forgo a non-retrofittable option in favor of tooling.

[TXFred]

[*]Programmable coolant nozzle

There are two things about this nozzle that you need to keep in mind.

1. It's not very useful when you're using the 4th axis, since the 4th axis often blocks the coolant from reaching the work.

2. It's hard to get coolant onto short tools held in ER32 collet holders. The body of the collet holder blocks the coolant from reaching the cutting edges.
You can aim the coolant below the tool, and this will get coolant to the tool 90% of the time. But when you're milling the right hand edge of a workpiece, the coolant will hit the side of the workpiece and flow away from the tool. I just chip welded a chamfer mill today because of this.

It's pretty easy to get around this with a single lock-line nozzle. If you're buying tool holders, make sure all your ER tool holders are the same length. Then a single lock-line nozzle can be aimed to cover all of them.

But don't get me wrong, I love the programmable coolant. It's a wonderful feature on any enclosed machine that doesn't have TSC. I just want to point out its weak points.

Frederic

[SDS510]

Hi All,

Thankyou to everyone with your advise and guidence. As of today I have purchased a VF-2SS and yes it has the much debated PCN (it appeared to be cost prohibitive post delivery and adds little to the initial purchase price).

There are some options that based on feedback should have been added but I think day one I can survive and the cost post delivery is no more.

Now to the next decission ... software. Almost set on Solidworks for CAD, CAM not so sure, looking at SolidCAM, DelCAMM and HSMWorks but this is probably a discussion for another forum.

Thanks again for everyones help and look forward to discussing the workings of my new baby in a few months.

Cheers ... Paul

[behindpropeller]

Hi All,

Thankyou to everyone with your advise and guidence. As of today I have purchased a VF-2SS and yes it has the much debated PCN (it appeared to be cost prohibitive post delivery and adds little to the initial purchase price).

There are some options that based on feedback should have been added but I think day one I can survive and the cost post delivery is no more.

Now to the next decission ... software. Almost set on Solidworks for CAD, CAM not so sure, looking at SolidCAM, DelCAMM and HSMWorks but this is probably a discussion for another forum.

Thanks again for everyones help and look forward to discussing the workings of my new baby in a few months.

Cheers ... Paul

Not on topic.... But I have found HSMworks to be very easy to learn and use.

Tim