[SDS510]

Hi All,

I have been lurking for a couple months now and as this is my first post I will start with a little background ... I run a small business servicing the drag racing community here in Australia. I supply and install data loggers on some of the leading cars in the country along with providing consultancy and tuning services.

I want to expand my business and start making brackets for the sensors and loggers rather than leaving it to the customers along with some development work on various racing components.

I started looking at some of the hobby mills (syil etc) but have ended up settling on a Haas VF-2, which in time will allow me to perform some cylinder head work in addition to the primary work. Specs as follows:

20 Station Automatic Umbrella Type ATC, 1 MB Memory, 15” Colour LCD Screen, USB Port, Memory Lock Key switch, Rigid Tapping, 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System, 10,000 rpm Spindle, Auto Chip Auger, Programmable Coolant Nozzle, Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System and Power Failure Detection Module

I have a degree of machining skills (lathe, mill, sheet metal work, chassis manufacture) developed through an apprenticeship and hands on work, coupled with my trade as an electronic technician with a broad range of programming skills I feel the step into the CNC world won't be too big ... although I'm not arrogant enough to think it will be easy.

What I want to ensure is that I minimise the amount of mistakes along the way (although I'm sure there will be a few) so I would appreciate any advice on the following.

1. OneCNC for the CAD/CAM package (25% off at the upcoming trade show).

2. BT40 vs CAT40 ... the Haas agent recommends BT40, seems more the standard in Australia but from what I have seen online it limits some tooling suppliers (with the internet making the world so small I wonder if CAT40 is the way to go if I plan on ordering my tooling online).

3. Is the high speed machining worth it now or do I wait until I am doing more complex parts.

4. Is the Intuitive programming worth it if I am primarily programming from a CAD / CAM package (its $2k which can be put towards the software).

Thanks in advance .... Paul

[behindpropeller]

Hi All,

I have been lurking for a couple months now and as this is my first post I will start with a little background ... I run a small business servicing the drag racing community here in Australia. I supply and install data loggers on some of the leading cars in the country along with providing consultancy and tuning services.

I want to expand my business and start making brackets for the sensors and loggers rather than leaving it to the customers along with some development work on various racing components.

I started looking at some of the hobby mills (syil etc) but have ended up settling on a Haas VF-2, which in time will allow me to perform some cylinder head work in addition to the primary work. Specs as follows:

20 Station Automatic Umbrella Type ATC, 1 MB Memory, 15” Colour LCD Screen, USB Port, Memory Lock Key switch, Rigid Tapping, 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System, 10,000 rpm Spindle, Auto Chip Auger, Programmable Coolant Nozzle, Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System and Power Failure Detection Module

I have a degree of machining skills (lathe, mill, sheet metal work, chassis manufacture) developed through an apprenticeship and hands on work, coupled with my trade as an electronic technician with a broad range of programming skills I feel the step into the CNC world won't be too big ... although I'm not arrogant enough to think it will be easy.

What I want to ensure is that I minimise the amount of mistakes along the way (although I'm sure there will be a few) so I would appreciate any advice on the following.

1. OneCNC for the CAD/CAM package (25% off at the upcoming trade show).

2. BT40 vs CAT40 ... the Haas agent recommends BT40, seems more the standard in Australia but from what I have seen online it limits some tooling suppliers (with the internet making the world so small I wonder if CAT40 is the way to go if I plan on ordering my tooling online).

3. Is the high speed machining worth it now or do I wait until I am doing more complex parts.

4. Is the Intuitive programming worth it if I am primarily programming from a CAD / CAM package (its $2k which can be put towards the software).

Thanks in advance .... Paul

I never use the Intuitive programming. Always do everything in CAM.

I'm 2 years into learning how to run a CNC mill from not knowing anything.

You have the HSM trial on your machine, you might want to try before you buy. Since it is just a call to them and input of a code I would leave it off unless you are rolling it into a loan of some sort.

Tim

[gizmo_454]

Like behindpropellor, I have not used the intuitive programming system, however, I do most of my programming by hand as opposed to CAD/CAM because I find it more suited to my needs in a production environment. To each their own, in that respect.

As far as the high speed machining is concerned, I would personally order it with the machine if you are financing it. If you buying the machine without financing, meaning paying cash, I would assume the $2300US for the option later will not be a problem.

In either case, the HSM option will be needed if you plan on doing complex contouring of parts in the future. I recommend it.

As to the CAT vs. BT debate, they both have their merits. We use CAT 40 tooling in our shop due to availability. I understand, though, that BT holders are better balanced out of the box due to their design.

Good luck with your decision!

Mike

[SDS510]

Thanks guys appreciate the feedback.

Seems a no to intuative and a yes to high speed. $$$ are a concern and although I intend on financing (its all about minimising taxable income) its a trade of between repayments and finding the money later.

I guess 200 hrs goes some way however it is unclear whether:

1. 200hrs relates to machine or spindle time.
2. Whether the time is based on machine time or the time the option has been activated.
3. If deactivating the option stops the timer.

There appears to be multiple opinions on all of this ... guess its time to confirm with the dealer, in writing of course.

If tool change time isn't a concern is the umbrella ATC ok or do people have issues with them.

[gizmo_454]

We have the umbrella in our Mini Mill and we have had no issues with it. For all intents and purposes, it's almost bulletproof...taken care of, of course. We have the side mount on our VF2SS. What an amazing difference in time of tool changes!

The 200 hours trial is power on time on the machine. As to whether or not the timer stops if deactivated, definitely check with Haas. I was under the impression that once it was turned on, the timer ticked away no matter what you did when the machine was on.

Again, good luck!

Mike

[djr76]

I have a umbrella type and a side mount type tool changer. The side mount is the way to go and much faster tool changes. The umbrella types can get a bit sticky and get chips up in there and can get some corrosion.

[zsinclair]

I use the Intuitive Programming only when I am swamped. It is occasionally easier to have a machinist simply make a quick MDI program with it. However if I had to do it over again I would not spend the extra money on it. It is handy if you use it though.

Zack

[haastec]

Side mount T/C is definitely more reliable and faster.

The umbrella style is still a good tool changer and will give you many years of service. However, it is more exposed to chips and coolant which can cause problems over time with limit switches and other moving parts; a bit more maintenance.

[SDS510]

Thanks guys ... I would obviously love the side mount but at an additional $12k is very hard to justify ... this would be my software and tooling budget. I could survive without the side mount but tooling not so much .

I maybe need to negotiate a bit harder :devious:.

Another item which has me somewhat confused is the memory. The machine is quoted with 1Mb and an option for 750Mb. I understand the program size dictates how much memory but I don't understand the relationship between Harddrive, USB and Ethernet ... can a program be run from one of these external devices ... be great if someone can put this into simple terms.

Thanks ... Paul

[Gabe Newell]

The probe/tool offset setter is super valuable to me and i had to get the IPS in order to use the probe. Other than that I never use IPS.

I bought the hard drive and extra memory and never use them (even huge files run off the USB) even though I do a lot of 3d contours.

I didnt get HSM and it was a mistake. HSM isn't really the correct name for the feature. Anything that isn't a long straight line goes faster with HSM and the surface finish is better. My impression is that if HSM isnt' on that the control doesnt do any look ahead, which results in a lot of stuttering in movements.

I have BT, order all my tooling online, and dont regret the choice. I have the umbrella but would be happier with the side mount if I could go back in time. Rigid tapping is a must as is setting spindle orientation to make rigid tapping repeatable.

I use Solidworks for CAD and HSMWorks for CAM. Solidworks is well known, so I don't have much to add. HSMWorks is awesome, both as software and in terms of the support.

The memory/hard drive/USB is straight-forward. If you want to edit a program, it has to fit in RAM. I always edit on the system that has my CAM software (the Windows based NC editors are a gazillion times better than trying to edit on your Haas), but I almost never edit the output of HSMWorks because it is already doing what I want it to do. I run my programs directly off of a USB drive which costs about 1,000 times less than buying storage from Haas (16 GB USB drive is $18 USD, VF-2 750 MB option is $1,595 USD, so Haas is actually 1,777 times as expensive now).

I think i should have gone with a faster spindle and through spindle coolant, but those are the kind of features that might have hidden negatives so you dont want to listen to my wishful thinking on those unless someone who has them says they are straight-forward improvements.

Overall have I been happy with my purchase of a Haas? Absolutely.

As far as tooling, i have been moving almost exclusively to shrink fit. I can't remember the last time I used an end mill holder. I buy solid carbide cutting tools from Lakeshore Carbide with either Altin (for steel) or ZrN (for aluminum) coatings, and will occasionally buy brand name tools that cost 3X as much that last 1/2 as long just to remind myself what it feels like to waste money.

Hopefully this is helpful.

[Ydna]

The flute difference changes how much clearance the tool has for evacuating chips. You can theoretically feed faster with more flutes but with some materials you will pack the flutes full and cause a lot of bad stuff. Sometimes you have to be careful about plunging and center-cutting when not using 2 flute endmills, but it depends on the toolpath and material.

3 flute endmills are very common for aluminum cutting, and 4 flute endmills seem to be popular by the same endmill manufacturers when it comes to ferrous materials. That's what I use, personally. But with ball endmills you may need the center-cutting effect of a two flute. Looking back. so much of it is situation-based it's hard to draw firm guidelines

Anyway, has anyone mentioned the programmable coolant nozzle in this thread? I noticed it wasn't on your list as yes or no. The nozzle can be really handy if you're doing any sort of production work, at least that's what I've found. The minimills don't push as much coolant as the larger machines so coverage can get thin if you're working on a big workpiece.
If I had it all to do over, I would have just gotten TSC at the start and been done with it. Perhaps not to actually use through-coolant drills and such, but instead so I could use "all around coverage" coolant-through tool holders. But then again like he mentioned above TSC opens its own box of worms such as foaming and filtration, so it's a tradeoff...

(edit...just saw you were talking about a VF2 and not a minimill....oops my mistake!)

[SDS510]

Anyway, has anyone mentioned the programmable coolant nozzle in this thread? I noticed it wasn't on your list as yes or no.

Sorry Ydna missed that one ... answer is yes post updated.

[tooldude328]

SDS510,
The fitting tool I use is a propane torch. You really don't need an expensive shrink fitter.
The only advantage of the shrink fitters is they heat more uniformly.
We have 1 made by Haimer and I think it's just as fast to heat them with the torch to put the tool in.

[extanker59]

Our programmable coolant nozzle has been plugged for the last 6 months. Nozzle cap unmovable without a lot of force that could bend the whole thing. Anyway, the thing is, I haven't missed it. The 4 manual lines get good coverage. Maybe if I had a really long drill I would miss it.

[gizmo_454]

Ah yes...the venerable programmable coolant nozzle. Is it handy? Yes. Is it necessary? No. We have a Mini Mill and a VF2SS. The Mini is less the programmable nozzle and the VF2SS has it. 3/4 of the time, I leave the programmable one off. The 4 regular ports provide ample coolant, and adjustment to cover darn near any tool. If it is not enough coverage, loc-line is a cool thing... They have splitters! In combination with the High volume pump option on our Mini, I have split the single line into 3 for better coverage, (front, back, side, and different lengths). Even running 3 lines off of one port, I still have to run it at about 50-60% of it's flow to keep from getting wet. Based on what I have seen there, and my experience with our VF2SS, you could easily add a few splitters and nozzles to the machine to get the coolant where you need it for different tools and situations. I guess that is my biggest problem with the programmable nozzle...it's never pointing where it needs to be. It's great if you only mill on the right side of a part. If you mill on the left side, and the part has any height to it, you might as well be milling dry since it only shoots from the right and the tool is hidden from the stream by the part.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can buy a ton of loc-line stuff, tooling, software, etc. for the cost of the programmable coolant nozzle.

Having said that, would I buy one? Yes, if I was not trying to stay within budget constraints. No if I needed those funds for tooling and/or software. If you are limited to a budget and this is your first CNC mill, I would personally bypass that option and buy more tooling. Loc-line is cheap and you can add more very cheaply. Tooling, on the other hand, can be expensive and you never seem to have enough to do the job at hand.

Right or wrong, that's my $0.02. Good luck and have fun!

Mike

[Pondo]

If you keep getting answers from people that don't use their machines for exactly the same jobs you will be running, then you will not get the correct answers for your situation.
For example:
IF I had bought the 1 Meg of memory and tried to run everything off of the jump drive, I'd be screwed. The programs I run have a lot of 3D surfacing and the transfer rate from the drive can't keep up. The machine gets "data starved" and I would have to run it at a much lower feed.
IF I had bought the 25K spindle, it would have been a waste because I would have had to get better balanced or shrink fit tooling to use it fully.

You need to define exactly what you will be using the machine for and get all the options that you need and only the options that you need. There is no "perfect" machine, just the perfect machine for it's intended use.

[SDS510]

Hi Pondo your comment is fair and one that I have been mindful of. I think my list has been kept fairly basic with the exception of the SMATC which I believe is the right choice based on work I want to do in the future.

I guess I have looked at specifically what I want to do now and where I want to progress my business too. As I don't want to have to make another purchase in a few years time I need to cover my bases now.

[Pondo]

I do hope you end up getting the right machine for you. If there are questions, this is definitely the right place to get answers.
I just saw the word "confused" in your last post and and wanted to simplify things for you if I could. Thinking of what you specifically need Vs. what the best machine is.
Sometimes a different perspective gives you a clearer view.

[behindpropeller]

I agree with Mike on the coolant nozzle.

If you ever have a 4th axis on your machine you will take it off.

I put a used one on our TM2 and for an open machine it is a great addition since you are not spraying the shank of the tool. For a closed machine you can just use loc line and make it work.

[SDS510]

Hi all ... again great feedback.

I have just come back from our manafacturing expo which was very worthwhile. With regards to the machine I managed to negotiate a better price but then it occurred to me, am I specing up a base machine to the point where I could buy a more advanced machine for the same price ???

So where are we ... VF-2 with the following options:

• 1 MB Memory
• 15” Colour LCD Screen
• USB Port
• Memory Lock Key switch
• Rigid Tapping
• 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System
• Programmable coolant nozzle
• 10,000 rpm Spindle
• Auto Chip Auger
• Export Packing
• Power Failure Detection Module
• Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System
• 24 + 1 Side Mount ATC

I asked the question and a VF-2SS with the same options was $500 cheaper and nearly $12k less than pre-show prices :wee: and I get 12k direct drive 30hp spindle and increased rapids.

This is a no brainer isn't it ??? or am I missing something ???

Thanks .. Paul