[double a-ron]

..."Oh, and just for a matter of record... I disagree that one-offs can't be done behind locked doors. I do it frequently."

What happens thousands of spindle hours later when your window looks like that?

[miljnor]

This is all about the litigious nature of the USA. All "safety" measures were made for supposed "good" reasons. But on the other hand, I went to Korea last year and they still have exposed voltage contacts in area's that kids can get to (not toddlers) and when I asked about it they said, well don't touch em you'll be fine. I said "EXACTLY!"

Building codes come about for the same reason. How often exactly does one stick their finger thru a live socket to see how deep it goes? And should we care if that person dies? I don't and if it's someone I know I'll be really sad but damn you really can't protect against stupid, ever...I know I've personally done some really stupid things, but I survived and it's MY fault not some machine manufacturers.

We the users/owner have to pay for this BS, It's just like most laws. They don't effect criminals much just us law abiding folk.

If I'm willing to take the risk then I should be able too. period....It's just like that stupid lawsuit for the NFL right now....gee we didn't know we could get a concussion from running into another persona at 20Mph that weighs upwards of 300+ pounds......sure you didn't, just wanted the money bad enough that the risks weren't that important.

[keebler303]

..."Oh, and just for a matter of record... I disagree that one-offs can't be done behind locked doors. I do it frequently."

What happens thousands of spindle hours later when your window looks like that?

Uh, you replace the windows?

[txcncman]

Uh, you replace the windows?

+999

[underthetire]

Windows have a lifespan. You need to replace them, not only when they get hazy, but even after so many years, the coolant and uv weaken them. This thread kinda reminds me of reading about line men back around the 1900's. One out of every 10 or so line men got electrocuted. Laws were put in to place, as well as training. All the old timers were against it, but look now, maybe one death a year? Worker safety laws always follow major/many accidents. Just the way it is.

[miljnor]

is that a scientific correlation? I don't think so.

life is dangerous, just use your brain, think before acting.

life is dangerous.

Those who sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither safety nor freedom.

death is a natural part of living. No I don't want to die..but you know what? no matter what I do, death is coming for me soon or later.

If I want to base jump, I should be able too. If I die, or get maimed, I won't hold it against you to laugh at me or put me up for a Darwin award.

Fix the laws about suing and government freebies, not make it safe for everyone.

[double a-ron]

To replace the window the whole door has to come off. The machine doesn't have that kind of down time available. I'm already here 7 days a week running the mill and lathe.

A peek inside every now and then is all I've needed to avoid a crash. Also, please keep in mind there are two spindles, two work pieces, a live tool drive that is just begging to run into the sub spindle, and the sub spindle is dying to run into the parts catcher. Even when the window was new it was far to small to see all that.

It was also the first and only cnc lathe I've run and I've never been injured and never crashed it. It's a 2002.

[double a-ron]

I'd like to take what I said a step further. Well, more like 3 turrets further. What about the holy grail of multi tasking? The Nakamura WTW 150. [ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol0o6DuPEY4"]WTW 150[/ame] This is hardcore cnc machinist porn. Four turrets, two spindles, TWO CONTROLS! Anyone willing to proof a program with the doors closed on that? I don't care if it comes with door locks, they're comming off once it hits the floor. You need to clearly see what the machine is doing every step of the way.

[underthetire]

Playing the devils advocate...
What if you have a door open on, let's say a high speed mill, during set up. The hot shop office girl is walking by just as the part sucks out of the vise and comes out with 15k rpm spindle helping it launch. You know not to stand directly in front, it missis you and clocks her in the head. It could easily be your head, and the "new" set up guy on the machine across from yours.

I'm not against giving good set up guys a defeat key for the locks. I have them myself for doing ballbars and laser calibration. There are other guys I don't trust with my life, especially some of the crack fed operators I've seen.

[keebler303]

The machine tool builders have to protect the machine against the dumbest person who could possibly touch it. If you are smart enough to not get hurt, you can probably also figure out how to bypass the safety measures.

Who doesn't know coffee is hot? Somebody sued so now they tell you it's hot.
I'm sure somebody got wrapped up in a lathe or something and now there are a ton of safety measures on the machines.

Thank the lawyers...

Matt

[extanker59]

I disagree that if you die because you inadvertantly touched exposed wires (or any other thing that has been safetyfied - ha! New word. I claim it!) then it's your own fault. It totally misses the point. I agree that once you own it you should be able to bypass those safety features. But what if you hire somebody? I've worked in places that wanted you to do things and I've refused at times. But others are more desperate for the job (family to feed) or just not knowledgable enough to know its dangerous.
As other posters have pointed out, accidental workplace injuries and deaths have dropped dramatically over the years. I'm sorry but I just can't be callous enough to get even one person hurt just because I'm inconvenienced. I'm working with a 2011 VM-2. At first I was very agravated. But you get used to it and it's not such a big deal.

[txcncman]

Playing the devils advocate...
What if you have a door open on, let's say a high speed mill, during set up. The hot shop office girl is walking by just as the part sucks out of the vise and comes out with 15k rpm spindle helping it launch. You know not to stand directly in front, it missis you and clocks her in the head. It could easily be your head, and the "new" set up guy on the machine across from yours.

I'm not against giving good set up guys a defeat key for the locks. I have them myself for doing ballbars and laser calibration. There are other guys I don't trust with my life, especially some of the crack fed operators I've seen.

crack fed operators! Sad but true.

[miljnor]

I'm not against any saftey messures they make at all, I'm just against all the excuses of why I shouldn't be able to modify my own machine.

The proper solution to every problem is to throw money at it until it is fixed (according to the government and fear based thinking) I mean sure I could by a vf-9000 for that 1 or 2 jobs that are 8' long tubing with one hole notched in the end. But I wouldn't be in business long now would I? I think it more efficient to just leave a door open and machine the end in a Vf-2 and just be cautious. But hey that's just me.

You can't plan, cure, fix, explain away or legislate for Stupid. Just go with what feels right.

[double a-ron]

+1!!!!!

I cut windows in the sides of my minimill 2 for doing the same thing. The longest part I've done so far is 10 ft!

[extanker59]

So, clearly there is a way around them for those who want/need to do it? Then what's the problem?
If they want to sell a machine, with lots of safety gear that will cover their butts and save fingers, eyes, or even just one life and just cost the vast majority of us a little inconvenience, what's the big deal?

[double a-ron]

My mill is a 2008. It has no door locks. I was just comenting on what he said about workpieces hanging out of the machine. You are right though, there is a way to get past them, just unbolt them and tie them up out of the way. Problem solved.

[extanker59]

Understood. Just putting my opinion out there. LOL, I like voicing my opinion.

[scurry]

There are 50 machines in my facility. 30 of them weren't built with door interlocks. We just got inspected by osha. They're making us install door interlocks. Being older equipment. It's all retrofitting. Very pricy. So the only other option is to get rid of them all and buy newer equipment. Be careful bypassing interlocks if you have them. Willful violations are even more expensive.