[louieatienza]

BTW.................IF......an ATC was considered as a must have item by enough customers.....no doubt Defeng could design one that would suffice, or just add another 100mm to the table length and travel and fit the static magazine as I suggested.
Ian.

There is no way to be profitable or even sustainable if different table sizes need to be stocked just to accommodate... a tool magazine? You need to stock different sizes of ballscrews and linear rails as well. How is this a cost effective solution for manufacturer or a customer?

Really if I had an extra 100mm on my table I guarantee I will utilize it for work space, not to encumber it with a tool rack.

[asuratman]

oh sure. I will do. actually I should have a visitor tomorrow I will take some pictures then to show my facility even it's still a little small for now..lol

Thanks.

[handlewanker]

Whatever Louie........the ATC is just a might have, might want feature for later consideration.........anything is possible if you apply enough thought to it.

Anyone retrofitting a manual mill for CNC work has my sympathy, even if the outcome suits their needs.

Defeng will no doubt stock the items as he sees fit.....custom stuff is at customer's cost anyway, hence the options for different spindles etc, and buy in linears and ball screws are off the shelf stock items anyway.

Complicated mechanisms are only so if you don't understand the principle of the design, but we'll just have to see where it takes us.
Ian.

[louieatienza]

Again, how could anyone in their right mind justify stocking two table lengths, two different size linear rails, and two different size ballscrews, to accommodate a table mounted ATC? That doesn't make sense. Because YOUR mind thinks of it doesn't mean it has to come to fruition.

It's also insulting that you feel retrofitters of manual machines somehow need your sympathy. I hope they show their sympathy to you, when you finally receive this piece of machinery that you aren't prepared to operate...

[handlewanker]

No insult intended........working all day and night to get to a passable CNC machine is not my idea of the ideal way to do it.

It can be the entry level to the CNC World, but not for me, that's why I bit the bullet, re-pawned the family jewels again and went for broke to get the real deal with bells and whistles etc.......sometimes you just gotta have your toys, no matter what, and I expect in the very fullness of time I'll become fairly proficient with G code, Turbo cad and Sketchup to fulfil the needs as required.

The relatively cheap initial cost factor for the donor manual mill is one that lures many people on to spend more than they bargained to, for something that with a few dollars more could be the real thing.....but that's just my opinion......I don't like half measures.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

edit....double post.

[yulolaf]

You really are obtuse to the nth degree if you can't fathom retrofitting and feel the need to insult those that do. It may be a shock I'm sure for you to hear that many people LIKE the process. Guaranteed they'll be more educated by undertaking the work themselves rather than wait years for someone else do what they could never do. You should visit your local car show or similar and ask those fellas if they enjoyed doing the work themselves. You'll find similar levels of pride per retrofitting starting with the highest from the fella who did all the work himself, then the one who retrofitted by just bolting on kits to the least proud, the guy who just bought someone elses work. It's the same thing. Let the last guy insult the first guy about his choice to do for himself and watch the fists fly. Maybe civility is something you can add to your long list of things you need to teach that old dog of yours.

[louieatienza]

Everything in engineering involves compromise. There are benefits and disadvantages to most any design, the key is balancing a design to meet specific performance targets. There are advantages to both linear rails and dovetail and box ways.

Part time I operate an older Bridgeport clone fitted with a Centroid control and ground ballscrews driven by servos and belts. It's lived its long life, about 20 years prior, cutting only aluminum. Only recently did we start cutting mild ateel with it. The machine is rock solid with no play on any axis, yet I can move the table with the lightest of pressure. Kitamura makes CNCs today that still incorporate hand scraped ways and joints.

As to g code... It's good to learn in my opinion. But to fully take advantage of this machine you really need to invest in at least a decent CAM. Especially if you intend to do any 3D contouring.

[handlewanker]

You really are obtuse to the nth degree if you can't fathom retrofitting and feel the need to insult those that do. It may be a shock I'm sure for you to hear that many people LIKE the process. Guaranteed they'll be more educated by undertaking the work themselves rather than wait years for someone else do what they could never do. You should visit your local car show or similar and ask those fellas if they enjoyed doing the work themselves. You'll find similar levels of pride per retrofitting starting with the highest from the fella who did all the work himself, then the one who retrofitted by just bolting on kits to the least proud, the guy who just bought someone elses work. It's the same thing. Let the last guy insult the first guy about his choice to do for himself and watch the fists fly. Maybe civility is something you can add to your long list of things you need to teach that old dog of yours.

I did say I personally don't like retrofitting......go read .
Ian.

[Stigoe]

Anyone retrofitting a manual mill for CNC work has my sympathy, even if the outcome suits their needs.

I think it is probably more this remark that rub them the wrong way.

[louieatienza]

You really are obtuse to the nth degree if you can't fathom retrofitting and feel the need to insult those that do. It may be a shock I'm sure for you to hear that many people LIKE the process. Guaranteed they'll be more educated by undertaking the work themselves rather than wait years for someone else do what they could never do. You should visit your local car show or similar and ask those fellas if they enjoyed doing the work themselves. You'll find similar levels of pride per retrofitting starting with the highest from the fella who did all the work himself, then the one who retrofitted by just bolting on kits to the least proud, the guy who just bought someone elses work. It's the same thing. Let the last guy insult the first guy about his choice to do for himself and watch the fists fly. Maybe civility is something you can add to your long list of things you need to teach that old dog of yours.

Here's the irony... People who retrofit their machines do it half way, yet Ian's going to make his own zero backlash gearbox for a rotary, roller screw, ATC, Z axis extension... And be derogatory to those who actually MAKE things. Again, if you open that can of worms...

[Skyfire]

[QUOTE=G59;1688566][QUOTE]
I think you may misunderstood this word "simplicity" here. I think Ian means the SVM-0 is simple to use but not to build it or try to DIY its parts. This will save a lot of efforts and time or even money. In some sense, it's "simplicity". This is my understanding. Simple for users always means complicated to builders, right?

As to my story, I said from my first sentence that I'm a machine manufacturer. I couldn't be the first time to build machines. So of course lot's has been going on, or I would not have experience and capability to build SVM machines at first place. If you want to know, I have piles of failure castings in store also..I'm not, and will not talk about other business here. Just focus on SVM machines and my work progress releated. Please really read my former posts, nothing pop out from nothing. All of them had been mentioned.

Btw.. I really don't know what you want to hear and I even have no time to think about that..I just share my progress and something interesting here. I won't explain this again. Please feel free to speak, nothing really mater. take a time, things will get clear itself.

At last, it's not a venture here.. It's a journey for me.

[Skyfire]

LOL... guys. take a break. I want to say something about the debate about "retrofitting CNC" VS "all set CNC".

Firstly I remember someone has said “Needs" is the basic motivation of human behavior (or something like that).. We have different needs so we have different opinions on the same subject.

This time, I really begin to talk my story.. I have said my first step into CNC field is by retrofitting a X3 milling machine as many one did. I did this start from great interests, and I "need to know, need to learn" more and more of CNC machines. Experiences and skills won't come from imagination but do it with my own hands. The fist step maybe silly, not successful, wasting money and time but I did learn something by going though all the process. I remember I bought some secondary hand ballscrews and take them like treasure but so stupid I removed the nut then balls fell to ground and never found them all.. Then I had to think out a way to reload them into the nut. It's an idiot behavior but I learned about ballscrews. And such things happened many times and each time I learned something..lol

I mean, this is the way to growing because we always need to learn to push our capability forward. So, anyway, we should always show respect to the retrofitting guys because they have the potential to create new things in the world no matter it's big or small.

Then, when I begin to be a manufacturer, things have some dramatic changes. I need tools. I don't care how the tool work, I have no time to make tools, and I don't know if self-made tools will satisfy production requirements. So I will buy tools directly instead of retrofitting, DIY stuff.. Now you see, my needs changed.

But, I started from retrofitting. It's a mark on me. So I build SVM machines as a real tool that user don't need to do anything but power up to run it. Mean while, I tried to leave many small possibilities for any one who want to do something on SVM-X. Such like the split spindle box, dismountable electric box, extra relays, panel buttons, 2nd panel, and even the extra wire holes I don't use at all. The base line is---don't destroy the machine frame that causing accuracy lost

So, different opinions or machine features, we always can balance them and make the best choice to fit our needs. That's all about as I can see.

Defeng

[handlewanker]

Well spoken D......retrofitters do have a hard task to produce a machine from difficult beginings that will satisfy CNC standards.......many fail to get it perfect or even working to useable limits, but if they have a buzz from their achievements, good on them..........still to say it's not my cup of tea, and they do have my sympathy for working under non ideal conditions.....the gist of my previous post taken out of context.

Sometimes you can anticipate the outcome without having to drill multiple holes etc or even cut metal, if you have an ounce of knowledge in matters relating, that is what designing, inventing is all about.

Posts (mine) will be confined to SVM-0, -1, -2 matters here on.
Ian.

[louieatienza]

.....the gist of my previous post taken out of context.

I don't take ANYTHING out of context. You can parse your words all you want, but your whole attitude towards retrofitters speaks volumes. This is why when you make a comment about having sympathy for retrofitters, I believe you don't mean it respectfully. I can go back three years... here's just the past couple months.

....many fail to get it perfect or even working to useable limits, but if they have a buzz from their achievements, good on them..........still to say it's not my cup of tea, and they do have my sympathy for working under non ideal conditions.....

The relatively cheap initial cost factor for the donor manual mill is one that lures many people on to spend more than they bargained to, for something that with a few dollars more could be the real thing.....

Anyone retrofitting a manual mill for CNC work has my sympathy, even if the outcome suits their needs.

If you really want to get into complication, try retrofitting a manual mill and attempt to have it as a CNC fully capable machine, that is after you remove almost half of the machine's parts to make it tick as a CNC.....that is by no means a plug and play after market option as the suppliers never considered anyone to have a CNC capability for a purely manual mill.

all the other DIY retrofits have a track record of bad workmanship, poor design criteria and too many non essential throw away parts in the initial machine purchased package.

I think I'd be right in saying that apart from the X3 and derivatives, any machine built similarly and needing serious retrofitting would be a poor choice, when for almost the same dough (after all the parts were added) you could have say a Tormach or something similar.......could be steeper with all the extra bits that get sold after market.

You might make an X3 perform as a CNC, but first you have to buy one..........$2,000? perhaps?..........and spend another 2 or 3 grand just for the bits and pieces, forget about the time it takes.........that is if you have a workshop to do the necessary re-machining......and can stand the fact that all the parts you paid for on the new X3 are now throw away, or give away for cents on the dollar......and you don't get linear ways either.....grotty dovetails.....who wants dovetails, and badly fitted ones at that on a CNC mill.
We won't mention the toffee apple on a stick column as it's well documented and the efforts some take to bolster it up.
Couple that to the fact that the X3 is a quill orientated mill, so now you have to drive the head up and down on dovetails that were never designed to do that........does the phrase "head nod" mean anything to you? .......they are positioning devices to lock the head in position while the quill does the up and down bit.

I should say, most all retrofits I've seen have produced accurate work. I've seen parts made to .002", even .001" with careful planning. It's ludicrous to say that most perform poorly or cannot work to "useable limits," when in fact the opposite is true. I'm resting my case... just want you to realize that these guys put effort into their retrofits, and enjoy doing them, the same way you enjoy tinkering with stuff.

[ihavenofish]

can we all stop caring what the person with the least possible knowledge on this topic thinks about everything?

its just an endless loop here now.

[louieatienza]

can we all stop caring what the person with the least possible knowledge on this topic thinks about everything?

its just an endless loop here now.

Because I DO care about my fellow man and I WANT him to seek knowledge, because I see him setting himself up for some disappointment. And not because he has an awesome machine.

[handlewanker]

As I said, I'll confine my comments to SVM-0, 1, -2 stuff hereon......
Ian.

[asuratman]

Hi Loui,
I just knew that you make guitars from one of your thread, so that is why you order Hi-speed spindle on SVM-0. Do you make all guitar parts with SVM-0, fantastic.

[louieatienza]

Hi Loui,
I just knew that you make guitars from one of your thread, so that is why you order Hi-speed spindle on SVM-0. Do you make all guitar parts with SVM-0, fantastic.

Yes, one reason... The ability to cut wood at the proper spindle speed and with accuracy is one reason. The other is custom electric guitar parts, such as hardware and electronics. Hopefully I can explore tuner designs as well. Thanks!