[handlewanker]

Hi, I expect the actual cost factor for an added dealership won't be such a big deal to swallow.

At the moment Defeng is selling direct to the customer, and that means he's selling retail, so if a dealer is involved that would be a whole sale price to him and a retail price to the user, but the spin off could mean a customer direct access to service should the need arise.

The other side of the coin is the dealer won't be catering for custom made units, but for showroom stock items only, so somewhere Defeng will have to decide what a standard item is that the dealer will supply off the showroom floor.

That means no special ground ball screws, servo motors instead of steppers etc etc.

I doubt that a dealer will stock all those bits and pieces at a price that Defeng has quoted, like ER tool holders, vices, 4th axes, coolant pumps etc that they would prefer the customer to buy locally, that would come shipped with the mill if bought direct from Skyfire .com.......the stuff, even if bought locally, would still come from China, but now you have the extra shipping cost too.

It could mean a bare bones machine and you buy and fit the necessary hardware, even electronics yourself.......how that would fit in with a warranty when the customer has finished dabbling with the innards is another question.

I think that any dealer who stocks the bare bones item would need to be well up on the actual mill construction to advise the buyer as to the viability of any peripheral hardware he wishes to fit.
Ian.

[louieatienza]

Hi, I expect the actual cost factor for an added dealership won't be such a big deal to swallow.

At the moment Defeng is selling direct to the customer, and that means he's selling retail, so if a dealer is involved that would be a whole sale price to him and a retail price to the user, but the spin off could mean a customer direct access to service should the need arise.

The other side of the coin is the dealer won't be catering for custom made units, but for showroom stock items only, so somewhere Defeng will have to decide what a standard item is that the dealer will supply off the showroom floor.

That means no special ground ball screws, servo motors instead of steppers etc etc.

I doubt that a dealer will stock all those bits and pieces at a price that Defeng has quoted, like ER tool holders, vices, 4th axes, coolant pumps etc that they would prefer the customer to buy locally, that would come shipped with the mill if bought direct from Skyfire .com.......the stuff, even if bought locally, would still come from China, but now you have the extra shipping cost too.

It could mean a bare bones machine and you buy and fit the necessary hardware, even electronics yourself.......how that would fit in with a warranty when the customer has finished dabbling with the innards is another question.

I think that any dealer who stocks the bare bones item would need to be well up on the actual mill construction to advise the buyer as to the viability of any peripheral hardware he wishes to fit.
Ian.

The options you listed have been in Defeng's price list since he made it two years ago. Yes, ground ballscrews and servos as well.

For a dealer it's likely less expensive for them and the customer to have preconfigured units. I don't see why a distributor would involve himself with assembly as it can be done at the factory and shipped with the regular orders saving on shipping costs.

I also don't see how you can expect a warranty on parts you install yourself or how those parts affect the original supplied parts.

[ihavenofish]

a dealer for skyfire in the use will likely consist of someone that can bring in a dozen machines at a time to save shipping costs, and communicate information.

its very difficult to do anything else without investing millions of dollars and doubling the retail price of the machines.

the full service dealer with parts and service and 4 locations across the country etc is really only feasible if you are selling thousands of machines. Defeng may get there eventually, but not for a while (were jumping for joy that hes managed to ship 3!).

[handlewanker]

Like I said, in what form would a dealer stock a complete machine.......and if ground ballscrews were a customer's desire, I doubt very much if any dealer would stock just one machine in case a customer got picky and choosey.

Then there's the cabinet......how many customers want a complete package, cabinet and all.

When Defeng gets enough stock together to have shorter lead times, no doubt you could get a machine direct from Skyfire .com in as little as 3 weeks from placing the order........and to your specification from the options offered.......custom assemblies would only take a week longer, as the parts are still low volume stocked buy in and/or off the shelf components.

It does not take any more time to assemble a ground ball screw to a machine than a standard rolled ball screw assembly.

I don't see any options for different electronic packages on any of the Skyfire machines, so I expect Defeng would have the bare bones machines in stock assembled and wired with the stock electronics (which is the hardest part to assemble) and ready for customer option requirements to be fitted........no dealership would cater for that scenario......what you see is what you are gonna get, take it or leave it......and the next orders are sometime in the future when all stock are sold off.

I can imagine the cost spralling out of the picture with transport costs when a dealership has to source stock from another dealership due to low volume stock levels, and you still have to accept what they have in stock or wait for the next shipment of whatever they intend to stock.

BTW, I was under the impression that Skyfire.com can only ship complete machines on a licence......so what does a complete machine entail?
Ian.

[daniellyall]

Ian your guessing a dealer could bring in 5 of each machine and still sale bear bones he will just take parts of and then have spear parts to make a big profit on.

he can send what ever he wont`s as long as it makes money

[handlewanker]

LOL.......imagine Defeng allowing a dealer to strip parts to mix and match as the buyer wants........the dealership strategy will add cost to the machine at the buyer end..........far better in that case to have Defeng knock the dealer percentage off the machine and sell even cheaper direct to the buyer, or just sell them as listed on Skyfire.com at the economical price nobody can match.

I think everyone is forgetting that the biggest market place exposure is EBAY.......if Defeng listed just one on EBAY and shipped them like the cheap aluminium 3020, 3040 and 6040 routers, he would cut out all the dealership crap as EBAY is a Worldwide market.

I would have thought that having once been bitten by a second party mismanagement he would have shied away from getting into that situation again........as he previously stated.
Ian.

[daniellyall]

Ian I said remove and have spear parts not mix and match that a good way for a dealer to shot him self in the foot.
he can have both self sell and dealer lots of small cnc company's have both tormach do it why would he not if he has a dealer he can make more machines per yer buy more parts at ounces what drops the cost all round win for him win for buyer.

[handlewanker]

No doubt Defeng has a plan that he thinks can be profitable and at the same time free up the lead time by bulk transporting......we'll just have to see what transpires.

With the OZ dollar being down to the US 70 cents/dollar mark, the cost to OZ is now that much dearer all round.

Be interesting to see how Johhno's delivery works out, as I'll be in the same boat.......depends on his port of entry and subsequent delivery costs.
Ian.

[daniellyall]

as long as the delivery and shipping out fit are not dick heads like we have over here drive past the final delivery point twice and take 6 weeks to say its here then 6 weeks to deliver.

if the machines good who give`s a

[xrdcarbon]

thanks for sharing,it's helpful

[691175002]

These look really good. Once production starts to smooth out I might even grab one myself.

I assume the models shown on the webpage are out of date? They don't seem to line up with the pictures being shown in the thread. Wouldn't mind seeing prices on some of the options as well.

I'm actually surprised at how long it took for the Chinese to start competing with Tormach-style machines. Hobbiysts these days are very comfortable with cnc and g-code thanks to the proliferation of 3d printing. A lot of people who started with 3d-printing are becoming very interested in machining and I think cost and convenience are the factors holding them back.

I've been really surprised at the lack of competition (or even evolution - has there been a new product in the last five years?) for sherline/taig as well. I think if you make a machine with a compact enclosure that can be set on a desk/workbench it will be very popular. There isn't really anything accessible or convenient as an entry level machine right now.

[ihavenofish]

I'm actually surprised at how long it took for the Chinese to start competing with Tormach-style machines. .

err... the tormach is chinese made chinese style machine (actually taiwanese style if you want to nit pick) and came very late to this game. theyve done a nice job of it over here, but its them inspired by "the chinese" and not the other way round.

anyhoo

[handlewanker]

Well if you consider the fact that Tormach has hand scraped dovetail slides and that means expensive highly skilled labour at rates the Chines would never contemplate, being competitive is like running a family sedan on a F1 race way at peak hour.

I don't think Defeng has broken the technology barrier with his design, he's just weighed up the advantages and created a state of the art machine that ticks all the boxes......anyone can do likewise, but so far nobody has thought to do it that way.

Labour costs are the biggest insurmountable barrier to anyone in the West.......oh yeah, and a desire to create a piece of work that will be admired as opposed to just another money making attempt with all the cheap aspects as a design feature thrown in.

It also seems that the Taiwanese design is out of date compared to the mainland Chinese one created by Defeng, so if Tormach copied the Taiwanese model they are also out of date.

Time will tell if the venture succeeds and is copied down to the last nut and bolt in an attempt to emulate the Chinese wunderkind........LOL.

This is purely my opinion, so if it clashes with anyone's point of view.....that's life, but not as you see it.

BTW, the listed machine(s) on the Skyfire website are for the original basic SVM-0 machine with just the ER32 spindle and probably the SVM-1 and 2 models as well, so a lot of water has passed under the bridge in the evolution process, and that will impact on the final offering, but that is all to the good if your chasing the perfection path.
Ian.

[johnno402002]

If anyone has an email address Defeng is responding to, can you PM me with it.

[ihavenofish]

Well if you consider the fact that Tormach has hand scraped dovetail slides and that means expensive highly skilled labour at rates the Chines would never contemplate, being competitive is like running a family sedan on a F1 race way at peak hour.

most chinese machines have hand sraped ways. my weiss wmd16v does. the tormach has turcute actually. (which is of course scraped too). my novakon also has turcite.

the mill that started all this was the Rong Fu RF45 made in taiwan some years ago (they still make it, but most people only ever see cheaper clones). the mikini/skyfire, tormach, sieg/novakon/smithy and almost every other hobby mill is an evolution of that machine - some being better than others.

[handlewanker]

In other words, nothing new under the Sun, but a definite step in the right direction along the tree of evolution.

Quite frankly, if the SVM-0 had started out with dovetail slides I wouldn't have given it a second look.......but that's just me.......actually it was the aspect of the split head casting for spindle change over that sold me completely.
Ian..

[louieatienza]

These look really good. Once production starts to smooth out I might even grab one myself.

I assume the models shown on the webpage are out of date? They don't seem to line up with the pictures being shown in the thread. Wouldn't mind seeing prices on some of the options as well.

I'm actually surprised at how long it took for the Chinese to start competing with Tormach-style machines. Hobbiysts these days are very comfortable with cnc and g-code thanks to the proliferation of 3d printing. A lot of people who started with 3d-printing are becoming very interested in machining and I think cost and convenience are the factors holding them back.

I've been really surprised at the lack of competition (or even evolution - has there been a new product in the last five years?) for sherline/taig as well. I think if you make a machine with a compact enclosure that can be set on a desk/workbench it will be very popular. There isn't really anything accessible or convenient as an entry level machine right now.

Tormach is a Chinese machine, as well as Novakon. Even the steppers and drives on the Tormach are Chinese, albeit very good Leadshine products.

I remember FlashCut advertising a Sherline with an exclusive ballscrew design but haven't seen it lately. Then again most Sherline and Taig guys I know of are into modelmaking and such where speed is not as much an issue.

[handlewanker]

It's all gone very quiet again.........I wonder if the electric PDB is not working out as planned........a pity if it isn't working as I rather like the idea of a click on click off solution as opposed to the huff and puff other method.
Ian.

[jips]

I prefer understing it different way , quiet = lot of work , so good thing no ? , more over don't see why the electric PDB will not work , that's basic motion no worry for that .
The last shippment was a svm2 with an air PDB . Not yet an electric one shipped yet .
The only thing i worried about is the massive explosion at tianjin hope D was not here at time of incident ! So much died and injured pray for them

[tmarks11]

I wonder if the electric PDB is not working out as planned........a pity if it isn't working as I rather like the idea of a click on click off solution as opposed to the huff and puff other method.

Ian-
pneumatic draw bar is just as much of a "click on click off solution". Push the button for open... push the button for close. simple, no fuss. Electric is an overly complex solution that isn't required. Anybody who has a milling machine should probably also have an air compressor. Some things are easier to do with pneumatic tools.

Worried about the noise of an air compressor? You are cutting metal with a milling machine... that is not exactly quiet, especially when you start boring holes or facing materials.

It is not like you are using a sewing machine...