[miljnor]

what exactly does 4 pole tell us? and if 4 pole keeps them from working witht the rutex drives what drives will work. Although I don't recall any of the driver makers specifying what poles their motors will or will not work with.

So I am think this is a non issue?

[Al_The_Man]

The Commutation pulse tells the amp when to switch, it does not need to know how many poles the motor has.
Al.

[paul hamler]

Older style or should I say analog type drive (not digital drives )usually could care less about the number of poles as these drives are typically trapazodial
drives. However if using a newer digital drive where you usually do motor setup with a windows based program provided by the drive manufacture one of the paramaters you must enter is number of motor poles so he can communitate the drive current as it is done sinisodially vs trapazodially.
(I am a creative speller) I have no experience with Ruthex but am certain these motors are 4 pole.I Have gone through configuring one on a Tecknic 3000 drive and 4 pole is the right answer.
Paul

[Al_The_Man]

what exactly does 4 pole tell us? and if 4 pole keeps them from working witht the rutex drives what drives will work. Although I don't recall any of the driver makers specifying what poles their motors will or will not work with.

If you want to detect the pole count, use the method I outlined earlier of making a star point with the three phases and using the neutral point as common, rotate the shaft one mechanical revolution and 'scope count the electrical cycles per one mechanical rev. Or you can use the hall outputs.
Each high and low is one electrical cycle. The electrical cycles times 2 gives you the motor pole count.
The more poles a brushless DC motor has, provides smoother rotation at low rpm.
Al.

[Xerxes]

If you want to detect the pole count, use the method I outlined earlier of making a star point with the three phases and using the neutral point as common, rotate the shaft one mechanical revolution and 'scope count the electrical cycles per one mechanical rev. Or you can use the hall outputs.
Each high and low is one electrical cycle. The electrical cycles times 2 gives you the motor pole count.
The more poles a brushless DC motor has, provides smoother rotation at low rpm.
Al.

How about this method:
Use some lab power supply to drive some current thru one phase winding and then rotate shaft by hand. Now you can easily count how many "steps" motor has per revolution.

My motor has three steps per revolution. I guess this makes it six pole motor. I have verified that with scope using your method.

[miljnor]

Hey Tom have you been able to test those motors yet?

[rutexus]

Gentlemen,

I received my 2 surplus ctr motors on Monday, and A DATA sheet too! I looked it all over, and also forwarded it to Vladimir for his review. Talking with him last evening about the motors he said this:

They should work fine with the R2030 drives. They should also work fine with the R992H drives.

Because of the increased orders resulting from these surplus center motors being available, I've had a rush on the R992H drives, so we only have 3 left in the USA and 25 in Australia.

The R2030's will go into production next week. Vladimir has all the parts in hand, and only has to have the pcb's made then the drives populated.

Back to the motors:

I had called two different Sanyo Denki offices and received conflicting info from both of them. Forget what they said, the data sheet tells it all.

The motors have commutating encoders in them. This means that they have everything we need to run them. The commutation is done by the encoder instead of by real hall effect transistors. This is actually better than hall effect transistors. The encoder is a 2000 line encoder, which means that they will put out 8000 per revolution, however, with the step multiplier, Vladimir says that can be effectively reduced to 2000 (multiplier set to 4) with good results.

The 1000 watt motor should have brake resistors installed. .5 ohms, 50 watts per motor wire (3 of them).

We will not use the brake. It will have to be electrically energized all the time, because the brake is on all the time. The brake takes 24vdc to energize and only .33 amps. That should not be a problem to anyone, as the Rutex drives need 24vdc anyhow, and I don't think it would be a problem to hook up the brake to the same 24 vdc power supply unless one is energizing and de-energizing it. Use a diode mounted in reverse at the brake terminals to obsorb the energy generated by the brake when it is de-energized. If you plan to use the brake, make sure you have lots of filtering on the capacitor.

So, I expect to have the new supply of R2030 brushless drives in by the end of the month now. Vladimir said he is going to have them made now.

That's the report! I hope to actually try one of them out soon. I need to order some braking resistors for my 1000 watt motor.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

[ger21]

Surplus Center has two different 300W motors. Is it safe to assume that either one will work?

[miljnor]

Awsome I will probably pick some more up for later usage!

The two different versions are just One with brake and the other without brake.

[Stevie]

I'm in no hurry to get the drives; but I did not want to miss the servos
I knew there was an encoder; its in the discription
I will setup and test the mill on the steppers; then change to servos after the fact; this way I don't have to learn something new as i set-up the axis movements etc

Thanks for the update Tom
I'm off to Disney in a week and half; so nothing will; get done on the mill untill the vacation is over; however the lathe is full speed ahead

[Stevie]

The motors have commutating encoders in them. This means that they have everything we need to run them. The commutation is done by the encoder instead of by real hall effect transistors. This is actually better than hall effect transistors. The encoder is a 2000 line encoder, which means that they will put out 8000 per revolution, however, with the step multiplier, Vladimir says that can be effectively reduced to 2000 (multiplier set to 4) with good results

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Fotgot to ask on the last post
Tom // What kind of rapids etc can we expect with these and step and direction from Mach3 or Turbocnc???

[miljnor]

this is a total guess but mach3 can run at 25khz, 35khz, and 45khz so I am guessing that these are the limit in pulses per second on each axis so at the top speed of the encoder you would get 45000hz/encoder pusles = 22.5 x 60secs= 1350rpm.

[ger21]

With the 4x multiplier, as Tom mentioned, you get the 1350rpm. Without it, you get:
45000 / 8000 = 5.625 x 60 = 337rpm

If you spring for a Gecko G-Rex w/ Mach4 (probably somewhere between $400-$800 when Mach4 is ready), you can get:
4,000,000 / 8000 = 500 * 60 = 30,000 rpm, or at least the motor max of 3000 rpm.

[Stevie]

Mach4 has USB right?

[ger21]

Mach4 has USB right?

No. It'll connect to the G-Rex via ethernet. The G-Rex will have a USB port, but Mach4 won't use it.

[Stevie]

We will not use the brake. It will have to be electrically energized all the time, because the brake is on all the time. The brake takes 24vdc to energize and only .33 amps. That should not be a problem to anyone, as the Rutex drives need 24vdc anyhow, and I don't think it would be a problem to hook up the brake to the same 24 vdc power supply unless one is energizing and de-energizing it. Use a diode mounted in reverse at the brake terminals to obsorb the energy generated by the brake when it is de-energized. If you plan to use the brake, make sure you have lots of filtering on the capacitor.


Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Actually I will need to use the brake on my mill; the spindle and the drive/stepper etc will need to be held up if power is lost

[JFettig]

Current to supply these:
I ordered a set of 400W Motors which the nameplate currrent is 8.7A. If Im going to run 3 of these motors, do I need 3*8.7amps available at all times or only about 10 amps total?
I know that its similar to the 10 amps total with brushed servos, but no idea how this is going to work out.

Thanks,
Jon

[Stevie]

I would think you'll need enough for all axis to move at once; otherwise you'll run out of power

[rutexus]

Gentlemen,

I'll try to address a few issues at one time.

First, the question of rpm's with the surplus center motors. The calculations done above appear to me to be right. 1350 rpm with the step multiplier.

The mention of the Gecko /Mach4 combination is interesting, but can you buy one today? It has been in the works for the last few years. The spi mode of the new Rutex 2000 series drives also allows for very fast motion. I remember Vladimir saying 80 million steps per second theoretically. The DLL for the spi is still un-documented, but the spi is already in use with the Rutex tuning program. I hope the documentation becomes available this fall. The drives we are shipping already have the spi functionality built in. As I said, it is already used by the Rutex tuning software. Once the DLL is documented, you can access it too. The mother boards also are already configured for it as well.

DRO question?

Once the spi is documented for general use (we have two users programming with it I believe right now) the exact position of the motor is accessible at any moment in time through the spi. There is no way to read them through the Rutex drives presently in the step and direction mode. You could tap into the encoder signal wires of course but that is not the same as reading a decoder.

Thats all for now.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

[rutexus]

Jeffitig,

You should be fine with the 10 amps as you figured it.

Tom