[gurew]

man you really got that thing dialed in eh?

[gurew]

well whatcha want to make a set of brackets? wanna trade for 1 of the shooting targets me and a friend make? we sell them for $150

[Boogiemanz1]

gurew, My table is small compared to some of the tables here. I'm having trouble finishing it. Health problems are killing me. I have had 13 operations on my legs through the years, and I'm trying to put off having an ankle replaced on one leg and the knee on the other leg. I have been trying to make room in my main shop to put the table. moving my 2320 lb d0All band saw to another building about did me in. I have to move and rewire my lathe, and trade places with the big Hobart tig and my pullmax. 100+ degree weather hasn't helped.

I hope to do a full build here with pictures when I get a little closer......jb

[gurew]

sorry about your health! get better and stop having those pesky health problems.

i havent been on here much due to the fact ive been busy designing and filing some patents. also built some unrelated 2x2 tables that i plan to fix up and sell for cash to finish up my table. patents have been eating up my money unfortunately

[arewehavingfun]

sorry about your health! get better and stop having those pesky health problems.

i havent been on here much due to the fact ive been busy designing and filing some patents. also built some unrelated 2x2 tables that i plan to fix up and sell for cash to finish up my table. patents have been eating up my money unfortunately

Wow! They must be some good stuff. As, if you don't have millions of dollars to back a patent up in litigation, they are not worth much.

[gurew]

they are worth a lot actually...if you appeal to a large vendor, usually they will require you have the product patented, UPC code, proper packaging, product liability insurance, and a loooong list of other crap...

i dont want the patent so someone cant steal my idea..although thats nice of course...but its mainly to abide by their rules

[gurew]

i think in this day and age it seems best to lower your standards as far as pay..profit per piece. i mean if you lower your standards while in a bar...you are sure to get laid...same applies when doing business with a fat company that resells product...

sure you may be able to make $50 profit on each part alone without any resell help, but if you can increase volume to 42,000 pieces a year at $15 profit margin per part...well it certainly makes up for the loss you have otherwise...lots less marketing and work yet still have the ability to sell the product with little to no risk while employing usa citizens

[arewehavingfun]

they are worth a lot actually...if you appeal to a large vendor, usually they will require you have the product patented, UPC code, proper packaging, product liability insurance, and a loooong list of other crap...

i dont want the patent so someone cant steal my idea..although thats nice of course...but its mainly to abide by their rules

Watch out for companies making you patent your own stuff. Does not make a lot of sense to me. You know how much patents costs, right? Your looking at 7K for attorney fees for the least possible item like a paper clip.

[gurew]

heh im not new to patents or selling product to people requiring patents...i think for the avg joe it will cost upwards of $7k for the entire patent process...however if you are half way smart you can do it yourself and it costs MUUUUCH less...its time consuming...i figure i have about 40-60 hours invested in each patent ive done. biggest part is the research finding if the idea exists or not...

[arewehavingfun]

heh im not new to patents or selling product to people requiring patents...i think for the avg joe it will cost upwards of $7k for the entire patent process...however if you are half way smart you can do it yourself and it costs MUUUUCH less...its time consuming...i figure i have about 40-60 hours invested in each patent ive done. biggest part is the research finding if the idea exists or not...

Invest in a lawyer for patents, been down that road before.

Also, if a vendor told me that I needed to patent my stuff, I would tell them to screw themselves!

Never heard of that before.

[gurew]

i think i invest my money correctly..and i do have times where im poor then times where im doing just fine..im 25 years old, i own paid in full a 3100sqft house and a full home shop with grips of tools

if you have ever sold anything to for example...target, walmart, cabelas, bass pro shop, etc any big chain store...these are all things they require.

you will have to be EDI compatible
you will have to have a UPC code (startup on that is nearly $1600 alone just for a upc code)
you will have to have product liability insurance which depending on the product can cost upwards of $20,000 a year
you will have to be able to meet the demand else you are pretty much blacklisted

i dont hire a lawyer because i dont think its needed in MY CASE. if i do need to litigate, i can easily afford it after the contract has been done. i havent had to so far...doubt i ever will..my products arent exactly high dollar things...all under $400,000 in net profit for the company.

i just have a bad habbit (idk if its even a bad habbit) to save every penny until near the end of the fiscal year and buy big things...be it machinery or my house for example...ive put myself in a hard spot 2 times by doing that..having to take up a regular job that pays crap to be able to pay for electricity and water...but hey i dont have to pay rent or car payments...

[gurew]

you have to think large scale...vendors want to cover their ass...if they sell a product that has been patented by someone else and didnt have the rights to sell it...they would be in deep **** and have to pay millions....i see it from their point of view...

im not talking about a few thousand pieces a year..im talking 40,000+

[arewehavingfun]

i think i invest my money correctly..and i do have times where im poor then times where im doing just fine..im 25 years old, i own paid in full a 3100sqft house and a full home shop with grips of tools

if you have ever sold anything to for example...target, walmart, cabelas, bass pro shop, etc any big chain store...these are all things they require.

you will have to be EDI compatible
you will have to have a UPC code (startup on that is nearly $1600 alone just for a upc code)
you will have to have product liability insurance which depending on the product can cost upwards of $20,000 a year
you will have to be able to meet the demand else you are pretty much blacklisted

i dont hire a lawyer because i dont think its needed in MY CASE. if i do need to litigate, i can easily afford it after the contract has been done. i havent had to so far...doubt i ever will..my products arent exactly high dollar things...all under $400,000 in net profit for the company.

i just have a bad habbit (idk if its even a bad habbit) to save every penny until near the end of the fiscal year and buy big things...be it machinery or my house for example...ive put myself in a hard spot 2 times by doing that..having to take up a regular job that pays crap to be able to pay for electricity and water...but hey i dont have to pay rent or car payments...

I understand the other stuff your talking about but, for someone wanting a patent as a requirement is crazy. This is the only thing I'm focusing on, as this was the main focus of the conversation, "the patent".

[arewehavingfun]

It's all good! Just hate to see someone make a young guy like yourself think they
need a patent.

[gurew]

ah gotcha...name 1 thing in any major store that doesnt have a patent be it provisional or unprovisional....i agree with you..i think its dumb as hell....i wont dispute that 1 bit...but if you look into the numbers....even paying say $20,000 for a lawyer for the patent....thats a drop in the bucket


a real quick example without much details...last year we sold a product that produced a net of $14.12 per product sold. were able to produce 4 in an hour very reliable sometimes more depending.

signed a contract to provide 100 products for 32 stores every month, that brought in thats $576,000, paying 4 employees $10 an hour to do some VERY basic work, myself and a partner handling shipping and other tasks, taking out shop rent, utils, insurances, all the other stuff that gets paid, (splitting the remainder with my partner) i walked way with around $195,000 and some change before taxes and after putting $50,000 back into the company as a reserve for the next project..which we will be ready to submit in the middle of next year (materials in huge bulk isnt cheap....)


in comparison $15,000 is a drop in the bucket for a lawyer for a patent but a $15,000 lawyer can save myself and another company literally millions in litigation..kinda like insurance i guess...its wrong but it is what it is

if you EVER want to get into mass production stuff...and believe me you can keep it in the usa and not outsource to china and make a very good living...those people that outsource to china are just greedy....i could sit down and show you the math and you would be pretty pissed at the companies that outsource to china...they arent saving any money they are making up to 10x the profit...

[gurew]

thats just it..you do need a patent if you want to sell to big outfits..they wont accept your product otherwise...

[arewehavingfun]

thats just it..you do need a patent if you want to sell to big outfits..they wont accept your product otherwise...

To be honest with you. It looks like I have some reading to do. I'm mystified why a "vendor" would require a patent?

In the very least, you would think that a provisional patent would be all that is needed.

Very interesting! Thank's for bringing this up.

[gurew]

some companies have let me skate by on a provisional patent. there are rules with the provisional patent and you can read them here

Provisional Application for Patent

better be on top of your **** because if you go past 12 months like i have in the past..then thats it you are done, i missed out on a bunch of money because of that...bunch as in over 1/4 million...so maybe i shoulda had a lawyer??


i always get the provisional first, pitch my idea to the company when the product is done in a package and ready to go (i already have 100 upc's so it doesnt cost extra per product unless i go over 100 products which i havent yet)

insurance i get at the last minute through farmers, once i get the patent pending i market the product very briefly so that there is a list of good reviews and you are able to find it in a search engine for the people im trying to sell to...they feel better if its already a well known product.

1 thing that i thought was dumb when i first started is the EDI capability. idk if you know what that is but at first you are like screw that its a waste of money...but you cant do business without it for large companies...no more emails or phone calls for orders...its all handled through EDI and its all imported into quickbooks, where i handle purchase orders, send out purchase order confirmations which sends out to the company through edi and then send out shipping notices for freight, and send out invoices...its all extremely streamlined at that level

i complete the order, all in boxes on pallets wrapped up, send out an edi shipping request to the freight company i use and they have someone at my location the next day, they pick up the order, weigh it, and send me an invoice through edi, then i just pay the invoice, get a copy of the invoice, and forward the shipping details to the company that ordered from me...

sorry for the long winded reply but hopefully you can get a better idea of how it works

[arewehavingfun]

some companies have let me skate by on a provisional patent. there are rules with the provisional patent and you can read them here

Provisional Application for Patent

better be on top of your **** because if you go past 12 months like i have in the past..then thats it you are done, i missed out on a bunch of money because of that...bunch as in over 1/4 million...so maybe i shoulda had a lawyer??


i always get the provisional first, pitch my idea to the company when the product is done in a package and ready to go (i already have 100 upc's so it doesnt cost extra per product unless i go over 100 products which i havent yet)

insurance i get at the last minute through farmers, once i get the patent pending i market the product very briefly so that there is a list of good reviews and you are able to find it in a search engine for the people im trying to sell to...they feel better if its already a well known product.

1 thing that i thought was dumb when i first started is the EDI capability. idk if you know what that is but at first you are like screw that its a waste of money...but you cant do business without it for large companies...no more emails or phone calls for orders...its all handled through EDI and its all imported into quickbooks, where i handle purchase orders, send out purchase order confirmations which sends out to the company through edi and then send out shipping notices for freight, and send out invoices...its all extremely streamlined at that level

i complete the order, all in boxes on pallets wrapped up, send out an edi shipping request to the freight company i use and they have someone at my location the next day, they pick up the order, weigh it, and send me an invoice through edi, then i just pay the invoice, get a copy of the invoice, and forward the shipping details to the company that ordered from me...

sorry for the long winded reply but hopefully you can get a better idea of how it works

Not winded at all. I always like a good conversation especially with educated content.

Provisional seems to be everyone's cup of tea these days, as they can legally present their product as "patent pending".

I have some other information concerning "proprietary rights" which was created in northern California due to the software boom in the mid nineties. It is applicable to our conversation but, I need to find it.

Onward and upwards.

[gurew]

:P provisional is a heck of a lot cheaper and you can have it done within 6 weeks or less...a regular patent even expedited, can take 12 months, un expedited 12-16 months. thats a long time to wait to bring a product to market sometimes....esp when first to market can make or break the product sales

i havent been able to be a first to market company yet.