[FundaFast]

All - I am thinking about putting a swiss machine (16mm max) in my garage (which is in a residential neighborhood) to run production on a very simple part. My main concern is noise. Does anyone have a good idea of the noise (dB) generated by this size machine? I have been in front of several swiss machines, but never in "isolation", so I can't reasonably say how much noise a single machine would actually make. Thanks in advance.

[danrudolph]

If your machine uses compressed air, as most do, your max noise level will be Swiss+Air Compressor. The piston-type compressor coming on and off is more annoying than anything, we have a rotary screw compressor that had some of the lowest noise ratings we could find. We planned to have it in the same building as our machines, but quickly moved it out due to the noise and cycling.

It's all about your process too, we have a job that uses max spindle speed and air lines to control chips. That can be heard across the street easily. Then we have a job that uses about live tools with the spindle stopped for most of the cycle and is nearly silent.

I would not want to be in a garage in a suburban development, but if you have some room between your (friendly) neighbors, you'd probably be fine.

[tea hole]

I can say it depends.
What RPM will these simple parts be running? Do you plan on using a high pressure coolant pump?
It is my opinion that a swiss machine in a residential garage in a residential area may be too loud for the neighbors. I have been next to some running parts at low RPM with no high pressure coolant and well adjusted bar guides that didn't make much noise at all.

[ProProcess]

Noise aside, I would be more concerned about...

• Local Zoning
• Your Home Owner's Insurance policy
• Liability of the endproduct

It's always seems feasible to run a simple job at home, but the reality is just too much of a stretch.

Good luck!

[FundaFast]

Proprocess - thank you for the response. I've got the local zoning sewn up, though my permit is contingent on noise. That is why I am sweating that aspect in particular. It wasn't easy either...

Home-owners and liability of end product is good to go too. Having said that, I will be restricted on expansion based on product liability.

This is mostly a "see if I can" experiment, that will return only a small profit... I ain't quitin' my day job.

Thanks again, any additional insight is always appreciated.

[FundaFast]

Tea Hole - Good points. I'll be running the same part out of several different materials (aluminum, 416) so RPM will vary. I suspect max rpm will be 6000. High pressure coolant is not necessary. I'll also be running only one stock size, so hopefully bar guides can be pretty dialed in.

Under these circumstances, what are your thoughts? Obviously, my desire to make this happen might be jading a realistic perspective.

[FundaFast]

Danrudolph,

Thanks for the reply. The machine will require compressed air, and this has been a huge concern of mine. I am looking at the small rotary screw compressors (3-5hp) that come with sound enclosures. They are "rated" to 68dB max, though I do not know how often they will cycle since the tanks are small (60gal). They are also expensive, but if it is too loud, there is no point since my local zoning won't allow disturbing noises (for good reason!). What size was your rotary screw compressor? Do you know the dB rating? It concerns me that you had to move it outside.

For process, it is a very simple part (OD turn, live tool flats, thread, ID broach, OD turn on pick-off). However, I suspect I'll need some air to keep chips off the pick-off.

Furthermore, If I go through with this, I will be buying a used machine (1993-1995) for cost reasons. I know it'll be louder than a new machine... not sure by how much. Any insights?

I am positioned in an older subdivision, with larger lots (0.5 acre). I am on a corner, with my only adjacent neighbor on the opposite side of the lot from my garage. Having said that, my garage is attached to my house, so excessive noise would annoy me, my kids, and my wife (in opposite order).

[ProProcess]

... so excessive noise would annoy me, my kids, and my wife (in opposite order).

Now that's FUNNY!!!

This is by no means an endorsement but a quick Google search found this

[Brian-Gilliam]

Most machines are going to have a fair amount of hum from drive and servo motors. I would be most concerned with high frequency loud noise from the air blow on the pick-off and eject cycle. If this is something that you're serious about I would look into sound dampening substrates to hang in said garage. Do it yourself home recording studios are big business these days and soundproofing materials are readily available online, or depending where you live, in pro audio shops.

Just my $.02

[gizmo_454]

My first thought would not be about noise, but power requirements. Our 1993 Citizen E32 (1-1/4" cap) runs a 70 amp breaker on 208/230V 3 phase. Granted, a smaller machine will take less, but I don't know how well that will run, if at all, on a phase converter. And being in a residential area, I highly doubt the power company will drop 3 phase power at your house. That being said, and assuming you get that worked out...

Our E32 is fairly quiet, when compared to our Haas SL-10 lathe. The lathe has a warning on the side that "Noise can exceed 70 db". The swiss, does not make any note about it, probably because it was out before the really big push for warning labels.

At 30' x 120', with an 8' ceiling, our shop is not much more than a huge, glorified, garage. The E32 is located about 7' from the nearest garage door. Outside, with the door closed, you have to listen closely to hear it. Granted, being a larger machine, I do tend to keep the RPM down. I don't think I have run it over 4000 RPM yet and it is a 6000 RPM spindle. The air blow for the sub can be loud, but we have a small valve attached to the line for it. That way I can adjust it for what we need, not just all out all the time.

As far as air is concerned, I think it will depend on the machine you buy as to how much air compressor you will need. Other than the air blow in the sub, the only thing that takes air on our E32 are the barfeed when loading a new bar, and the hand air hose for blowing parts off. You should easily be able to get away with a small 3-5 hp compressor from Home Depot or the like to run that one machine. Even then, the compressor will be considerably louder than the swiss.

I hope this helps some.

Mike

[underthetire]

another concern is, a lot of Swiss machines from that era require cutting oil, not coolant. I wouldn't want 40 gallons of hot oil circulating around in my garage, especially if im not there.

[mactec54]

FundaFast

You won't have a problem it sounds like you are already on top of it, I know a guy that has 5 swiss type machines in his garage with no problems

The bar feeder may at times make the most noise, if this does put a PVC tube inside it to quieten it down

Get a Phase Perfect for your 3Phase power & you will be running

[FundaFast]

Mactec54-

Thanks! Already have the PhasePerfect selected. When I spoke with them about the application, they kind of shrugged shoulders and said no big deal. Of course they are trying to sell me a few thousand $ box of wires.

I have worked on several spindle-length servo barfeeders, but never a 12' hydraulic job... Little to no idea what to expect. Having said that, I have been in many shops where such feeds are used, and they were virtually silent. Anything I should be particularly aware of... Other than a local source for PVC?

Thanks

[FundaFast]

Regarding the hot oil - do you mean because of a fire hazard? Or simply because of leaks/having a filthy garage?

[FundaFast]

Gizmo 454-

Thanks for the info. I've had my local power company out and it doesn't seem power will be a limitation. However, as you suggested, it was certainly a concern. Like mactec mentioned, the PhasePerfect digital phase converter should run a small swiss off a 70amp breaker easily. Having said that, Excuse me for a sec while I knock on some wood....

The air compressor is a big deal and I am going to have to put a crowbar in my wallet for that. There are several small rotary screw compressors I have found that come with sound enclosures and dryers, all rated at less than 68dB. However, they range in price from $4k to $6k. Chicago pneumatics is the cheapest, then Ingersol, then Kaeser.

On that topic - do I need a dryer for the air?

BTW - the power company would drop 3 phase for me for the bargain price of $175k. I think they could have just said 'no'

[gizmo_454]

Really? ONLY $175K? I have to wonder, do they run fast after dropping a number like that on someone? Absolutely rediculous.

A few things...

First off, if you are looking at a hydrostatic magazine bar loader, PVC for a liner is out of the question. Those types of loaders have a polyurethane channel as a liner. This helps to silence noisy bars. On top of that, the channel fills with oil to help with stabilizing the bar, further limiting vibration/noise. So long as the bars you are running are straight, within reason, the bar loader should be quiet.

Second, as to the oil vs. coolant thing... Talk to any swiss machine tool manufacturer, Citizen, Star, Tsugami, etc., and they will all tell you that you CAN run a water based coolant in their machine. They do NOT, however, recommend it. It tends to get into the guide bushing bearings and decreases their life expectancy. One of the shops on the other side of our town bought a Star and didn't heed their warning. Every 3 to 6 months, they are replacing their guide bushing boxes. Besides, hot oil? Warm, maybe. Ours doesn't get much more than a few degrees above ambient temperature in the shop. The only thing I find with the oil is it can get smokey. Get a mist collector for the machine. It not only gets rid of the unwanted oily mist in the air and film on everything in the building, it negates the smoke.

Third, I would seriously ask the manufacturer of the machine for the air requirements of the machine you are purchasing. Even if it is a used machine. I have found that even though we bought a 17+ year old swiss, the manufacturer was more than willing to help with any technical information like that we needed. To give you an idea how much air our Citizen uses... We have a 10HP Speedaire piston compressor with a 120 gallon tank plumbed to our backup 5HP piston compressor with an 80 gallon tank. It is set to turn on at 105 PSI and shutoff at 135 PSI. Mind you, we have a small air leak on the bar loader. If we only are running the Citizen and don't use any air for anything else in the shop, we can run the machine for 2 to 3 hours easily without the compressor coming on. When it does come on, it pumps up in a little over 1 minute. And that is assuming the machine loads a bar every couple hours, and I don't have the subspindle air blow cranked. Most of the time, I keep that turned down because 100 PSI coming out of the collet tends to make the part a projectile. Basically, I just hate to see you spend $4-6K on a compressor when you can get away with a $500-1000 compressor and still have plenty of reserve. Again, to give you another idea... The 5HP Ingersoll Rand single stage compressor we have, (about $800 at Home Depot), is capable of giving us enough air for our Haas Mini Mill (4cfm constant flow while running+6cfm for air hose to blow off parts+6cfm during tool changes), our Haas VF2SS (same air specs as the Mini Mill), our Haas SL-10 (also same air specs as the Mini Mill), our Citizen E32, and other misc. air requirements for the shop. I will admit, that is the compressor's extreme upper limit, hence the reason we stepped up to the 10HP. As you grow, so will your air requirements. But for 1 machine in your garage, I really don't see the need for a $4000 screw compressor.

Finally, do you need an air dryer? I don't know if you really need a refrigerated dryer, if that is what you mean. For our 4 machines, we have a coalescing filter/dryer. The filter is available at TP Tools for about $200. It comes with separator and regulator for that price. If I remember right, it filters down to 0.1 or 0.01 microns and dries the air as well and is rated for 100PSI max and 100cfm flow. The filter elements are about the same shape and size as a roll of toilet paper and run about $7 each. They are re-usable. Swap the damp filter once a week for a dry one and let the damp one dry. So long as your compressor is not pumping oil, you should be able to make 2 elements last you 2 to 3 months easily in a full time, 2 shift environment. Obviously longer in your situation. This filter is intended for providing clean, dry air to paint booths. Works great for us!

Sorry if I am rambling. Best of luck to you!

Mike

[FundaFast]

gizmo 454 -

Wow, awesome response. Before I even finished reading it I sent a message to find out about air requirements. I had just assumed on the compressor, from requirements of machines with similar HP... Shows what assuming does...

Turns out you are exactly right (as you know). I could almost run this thing off a bicycle pump. You just saved me a few thou... do you have a Paypal account?

How do you like your 17+ year old swiss machine? Do they make 'em like they used to?

Cheers,

Josh

[gizmo_454]

Paypal? Sure! It is... LOL Anyway, how do I like our 17+ year old machine? It's the best machine in the shop. But then, it is the only swiss in the shop. From my understanding, talking with salesmen from several different brands, the general concensus is that no, they don't make them like they used to. They are not as robust as the new machines, however, the new machines have more capabilities that the old ones didn't. For instance our E32, being an early twin turret machine, does not have a "Y" axis. But it sure surprised me one day!

We had a bar that had a fat spot in the middle of it I didn't catch, so it got stuck in the guide bushing. Needless to say, after the drill broke, we had a cascade effect that when all was said and done, took out about $600 in tooling. That's another story. As a consequence of the drill breaking, there was no longer a thru-hole in the part we were making. The sub picked it up and proceeded to back drill the part, now solid instead of hollow, with a 5/8" 4 flute end mill. The material was 303 stainless. And it didn't do just one, it did about 30 of them before I got back to check the machine!

Anyway, we absolutely love it! As soon as we get some more room in our shop, we are going to get another, and another, and another.....

Happy trails!
Mike

[underthetire]

Regarding the hot oil - do you mean because of a fire hazard? Or simply because of leaks/having a filthy garage?

Both, but I have seen several swiss machines go up in flames from the oil lighting off. Usually it from cutting Ti, but if you do go that route, don't cheap out on the oil. Think it was hangstefers that had the higher flash point, fires went down in that shop quite a bit after that. We ended up putting automatic fire suppression systems on the machines, believe it or not they worked so fast the operators didn't even know there was a fire, except the machines shut off. (they all had pressure switches that kicked off the shunt trip on the main breaker).

[petriej]

My biggest concern for heat would be that generated by the high pressure pump. We run heat exchangers on our oil but if you are running high pressure for an hour straight and don't have a heat exchanger then the manifds in the machine will be uncomfortable to touch.

Barfeeder
We don't run autoloaders, but instead run single bar feeders from rhino bar. These are extremely quiet as the bar runs in full cushion of oil due to the hydrodynamic forces in the tube. Check out their website for a good explanation. One of their biggest drawbacks is space- you'll need as much room in front of the bar feeder as it is long so that you can change out the feedtubes for each respective size of material that you are running.