[skray775]

After the very productive "To Tomach or Not thread. I am leaning toward building a 45 CNC conversion with a Precision Matthews PM-45 M.

The going price is $2100 shipped and I am looking for opinions on the quality of the machine.

Main Specifications:
Table Size: 9"x32"
Max. Table Load Capacity: 300 lbs
Table T-Slot Size and Number: 1/2", 3 Slots
Table Travel, X Axis: 21.5" Hand Only, 20" Power Feed
Cross Travel, Y Axis: 8"
Head Vertical Travel: 14"
Max. Distance Spindle to Table: 16"
Quill (Spindle) Travel: 4-3/4"
Lead Screw Pitch: .100" (1 Handle Turn Moves Table .100")
Lead Screw Type: Acme Threads
Spindle Taper: R-8
Quill Diameter: 3-3/8"
Quill Feeds (Power): N/A
Spindle Speeds: 90-1950 RPM, 6 Steps
Head Tilt: N/A
Head Swivel: Side To Side, 90 Degrees
Ram Swivel: N/A
Power: 220 Volts, 1 Phase
Motor Horsepower: 1.5 H.P.
Casting Type: Fine Grain Cast Iron
Coolant Pump Motor: 1/16 H.P.
Approximate Weight: 950 lbs

I have not ruled out:

IH - $2800 + shipping ?
MTW MD001 - $2200 CND + shipping ? +duty or taxes ?
Enco - RF-45 $2900 + shipping ? Is it worth the extra $$$ for genuine RF45?
Lathemaster - no RF45 size machines listed.
Grizzly - GO720R - X table travel at only 16-1/8" ?

Also the PM45 M has a 3-3/8" quill diameter while most of the others I have seen have 3" quill. I am not sure this translates to larger bearings inside but one could hope.

So help me out, am I missing something?

Thank you for the help.

[jeremy0203]

next mill of mine(years down the road) with probably be the IH or MTW version, they are like super rf45s

[pete from TN]

If you have your heart set on converting another machine and it is gonna be an RF45(good choice!!) I would highly recommend getting an IH machine simply due to the extra travels. That is if you have the money for all of it. My Lathemaster is quite impressive and I am pleased with it but having the same basic machine with a 30x12 envelope would just be even better. Barring that several folks here have the PM45m and it looks like they are happy with them. I personally like the creamy white color scheme and the built in light and coolant system altho honestly most of that would be redone with a conversion. Good luck with whatever you purchase. Peace....

Pete

[Bubba]

my $1 (inflation)
As we both have a RF31 flavor machine, and if I were to upgrade the first thing I would look at is envelope. Particularly in the the Y direction. I don't know about you, but this has been the biggest limitation that I have had to deal with. You are looking at a square column machine, so Z has already been addressed.
I would not worry to much about a genuine RF machine as a LOT of the pieces parts are going to the dust bin anyway.
While I like the IH machine, Remember if your going to convert one the problems others have had with IHs service on the kit stuff. If your going to roll your own, then forget what I have said.

Of the ones listed, I think this would be a great choice for a conversion..

[skray775]

Yes the Z is the big drawback on my current machine but after I did the conversion I realized my Jet was the smaller size of the round column machines.
The Y at 6 inches is killing me, and X at 13 isn't much better...

Do you guys think the 3-3/8" quill of the PM45 has any advantage over the 3" quills on the IH or MTW machine? I will be locking down the quill anyway so I was not sure if it mattered.

And if I do the IH i would roll my own for sure.

[Bubba]

It has no advantage as you will lock it anyhow. 0"= 0" regardless of what it was originally!

[gd.marsh]

The IH & the Canadian IH clone do have longer travels which to me are real issues. Yet both of those machines seem to present other issues to go along with them. (IH has a terrible rap for shipping products, and shipping a MTW machine into the US from Canada can add considerable cost.)

Some of the rest of the machines have a column that is square all the way to the top .. which might have greater resistance to twisting than the tapered columns ..
Some of them have slightly heavier bracing in the base .. which again would seem a little stronger than the others .. But beyond that, to me it's like a Ford/Chevy argument .. Because though the machines are very much alike they seem to have little differences that can be judged as good or bad depending upon who's looking at them.

I would personally recommend you get specifics on availability & delivery costs & make your decision from there rather than brand name .. If done well, any of them will make a decent CNC machine for the hobby user.

I purchased a Bolton ZX45 which was delivered within a week of ordering & showed up with nicer fit & finish than my Grizzly G1007. However, I have since found some areas where they cut corners here & there to keep the price down. (likewise with the Grizzly) My machine is not fully finished & so not completely proven yet, but I've made alterations that have given me 12X24 travels that up to this point seem to be working well!

ALL the Chinese machines I've owned so far (9 to date) have their issues to be overcome, but also present a home user with an opportunity to delve into an arena they may not have otherwise been able to tap into.

Good Luck, you've made some beautiful parts with your existing conversion so far ..

[ninefinger]

Look at what you are buying and how much of it will not end up on the machine after its CNC'd, i.e. power feed, lead screws. Also, how about the motor? 1 1/2hp is fine and all but perhaps switching the motor out for a 3 phase unit (at 2hp) and adding a VFD will be in the cards? If so, can you order any with the 3 phase motor installed and save a few bucks there? I think you can for the MTW. The biggest advantage of the 3 phase is the higher rpm you can run just by increasing the motor rpm (helps with the aluminum that you cut a lot from what I can see)

Personally I'm biased as I have the MTW MD001. I like its big travels right off the packing crate - no mods needed to get 11x30".

Doesn't hurt to get a quote from MTW on the mill, including shipping and find out what brokerage and duties will run you (might not be as bad as you fear).

Mike

[arizonavideo]

I would ask PM if the quill really is 3 3/8 as I have never seen any 45 clone with other than a 3" quill.

My cost for the non CNC IH was $2600 Shipped to Phoenix so it is not much more money.

Tommy from the IH thread said he sent back the last shipment of mills because the machines came in under weight. I would think this might effect shipment.

If not they ship the standard mills without doing anything to them so if in stock they should be fairly fast.

If you don't need the extra size I'm sure you could get a extra inch or so from the Y on a standard RF-45 and if you plan on boxing it it will fit in a much smaller box.

[LUCKY13]

It would surprize me if the quill truely measures 3 3/8. Ofcourse its hard to look at vids and tell but it looks just like every other quill in all the 45 series mills.


You can get 11" x 24" travel out of the RF-45 9x32 table size mills without making major modifactions to the machines. Opening up the slot in the base will get the Y, and depending on the ballscrew setup if table extentions would be needed to get this on the X (or even just bearing mount designs).


Have you looked at the Optimum BF-46 machines that come out of germany? This is the only machine that I know of that really has any advantage over the RF-45's (outside the IH or clones). It is a very beefy machine, but doesnt have the longer table(33 1/2). All though it does have a beefed up base & head mounting with a large column. It also has veriable speed on the spindle, plus the gears. All the dovetail surfaces are hand scraped ( not just hit with a power scraper to make it appear this way like so many of the Asian mills are now).

Here is a small thread of one conversion of the BF-46.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht..._retrofit.html


My RF-45 weighs in around 750lbs and its one with a 32" table.(older Enco copy of RougFU).


The Optimum is the only machine I know of that really has hand scraped ways. If you look close at them you can tell the diff between this and other machines that come with some gouging on the ways. IDK what it would cost to get one here but if I ever get a nother machine of this size it would be hard for me to get anything but one of these, or a true IH.

If I had a shop instead of just a room in my house I would go with a Bridgeport because when I compaired them to my RF-45 the only room realy needed for the BP is head room, all else takes no more room than one of these benchtops. INfact the BP can take less room because of the possibility of putting it in a corner. This would work with a benchtop if on a stand, or a special built enclosure to fit a corner. But the BP is going to be so much more usefull & ridged its still no compairison & because of its design it fits a corner nicely.


The quality of the Optimum, and the extra travel of the IH are good points to consider. The IH clone apears to be worth getting also. IDK if its true but IH is in the middle of upgrading its castings for even more ridgidity. But with the info of them getting a bad shipment I wander. And how long will it be before one is available would be of interest also.

The Optimum can also be bought with a ISO40 taper which I feel is really good. And quality of every part of the machine seems to be way above all others.


Jess

[Maglin]

When I was looking for what mill to buy I went with the PM45 over the IH due to all the negitive threads on the IH customer service and turn around times. That and at the time it was a $1,000 difference shipped to my door between the 2. It might still be that after you factor in shipping on the IH machine. My thought was a few extra inches of Y wasn't worth 50% more in costs. The extra Z really isn't needed as 99% of the time I'll be machining with in a few inches of the table to maybe 9" so that isn't factored in.

I'll go measure my Quill as it is sitting by my bench atm to let you know how large it is. Quill travel was pretty long around 4" I want to say but it's only good for drilling really. With going to CNC quill travel is unimportant.

Now if you wanted the turn key IHCNC I would say go for it. I have a lot invested into mine in parts and other machines to help with the conversion. Not near the price of the IHCNC but it's running out of the box and if you can afford it seems to be a very nice machine with servo's running mach 3.

And a note about QMT. I would not hesitate dealing with QMT and Matt for future purchases. He doesn't sell the garage china stuff. If you talk with him for any length of time you will find he really knows the tools he sells and knows a lot about machines as he was a machinist for years. The stuff he does sale is of better quality for china stuff. I tested all the drill chucks including the keyless chuck and I couldn't detect any runout with my .001" DTI. I'll report back on the quill but I don't think its really much of a factor.

[morgandc]

When I talked to IH a couple of days ago, he had a shipment coming in any day, but all of them were spoken for. Next shipment would be the new design and he was hoping for early next year it sounded like. Also, the price oin the new design was going to be a little more.

[jid2]

The Quill is 3.0" i just measured mine.

So far my PM45 is doing fine. Only real issue is the caps on the motor being crap, I had to replace them to get high gear to work after the first few uses. It's hard to compare it to others when you don't have direct experience with them. The Z-Axis mount on the PM45 seems to be beefier than some of the others. Based on the CAD model I created from measuring my PM45 and designing all the mounts I'm having to lower my X and Y axis ball screws to create the needed clearance. This means removing a bit of material from the area of the saddle where the X axis ball nut mounts goes, as well as lower mounting ballscrews mounts. I'm also going to need to slot the front hole for the Y axis ballscrew to exit the base casting.

You can review my build thread if you haven't already. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...sion_rf45.html

[skray775]

To bad about the quill not being 3-3/8" but thank you for measuring it for me.

That optima looks really nice and I will check it out.

Last week I sent IH an email asking about shipping but have not heard back yet. On Friday I sent MTW an email asking about shipping and on Saturday received a replay that they would get a quote for me on Monday.

I am going to call QTM on Monday. They are in PA and I might take a drive to go see one in person.

[skray775]

Optimum BF46 Gear Head Mill/Drill, 20 In, VS, 230v, 1.5HP

$4925. Looks nice but a little steep.

Have you looked at the Optimum BF-46 machines that come out of germany? This is the only machine that I know of that really has any advantage over the RF-45's (outside the IH or clones). It is a very beefy machine, but doesnt have the longer table(33 1/2). All though it does have a beefed up base & head mounting with a large column. It also has veriable speed on the spindle, plus the gears. All the dovetail surfaces are hand scraped ( not just hit with a power scraper to make it appear this way like so many of the Asian mills are now).

[Maglin]

My quill is 3" also. That BF46 looks nice, but at almost $5k that is a bit steep. That site doesn't give it's X Y travels. After having a DC motor on my lathe I'm not a huge fan of them for their low speed power or lack their of and their difference between load and no load rpm.

[pete from TN]

No I would say that is A LOT steep... I love my RF45 and it sure is beefy but honestly if I had to do an RF45 all over again and I had the cash the IH/MTW mill would be my choice. Yeah you can mod the RF45 to get decent travels mine is around 9.5x 24 or so now but that does not compare to 12x30 I don't care how you stack it. The IH machine has travel in spades and that is BEFORE you modify it. It is definitely more expensive but IMHO assuming it is very similar or better in performance to my RF45 it is gonna be so worth it. Converting these machines is no small order and there is a lot of work to do to get it where you want it. If you are gonna get an RF45 style machine and mod it, might as well get the biggest heaviest one with the largest travels even if it is more money. When you are finished with it you will only enjoy it more. Having the ability to put multiple vises on the table or even keep your vise and your rotary unit on there and still have room to really use them would be so nice.

The three phase motor setup whether you keep the gear train or convert to a belt drive is a no brainer too. Getting mach3 to talk to your VFD is now doable without extra boards or controllers via modbus and I am here to tell you it is a SWEET Setup. The next mill I buy will be at least as big as the IH if not MUCH bigger because there is just no substitute for rigidity and travels. It is a shame that BF is so damn expensive but regardless of how nice it is, it is STILL just a chinese bedmill... You might also be a little patient as I have seen several IH machines for sale on craigslist over the past couple months a few were already converted or were IH CNC turnkeys. They pop up occasionally and some are priced quite reasonably. I would say that these machines are a good compromise between a small benchtop machine and a much larger heavier machine. There really is nothing in the price range anywhere near what it can do. For me once the price goes into a couple grand for the manual machine then I am going to be looking to a used commercial knee or bed milling machine anyways so that BF would never work for me, despite how nice it looks.

It has been said that a bridgeport mill does not take up much more space than an RF45 mill. I gotta say that this is just not the case. Ya gotta remember that a knee mill even a small one usually has a 9x42 table, that table usually has like 36+ inches of travel so you can do the math and realize quickly that it is gonna take up quite a bit of room end to end. It is also quite tall and pretty damn heavy. They are also quite deep in profile depending on the model. Bridgeports are also not known for being terribly rigid. There are some rigid ram knee mills that are QUITE rigid but most of the bridgies are not like that unless you go to a series 2 machine which is MUCH bigger and much heavier as well. The RF45 is quite nice, does not take up much space in comparison, (it is NOT small) and fits somewhere in the middle between a knee mill and the much smaller benchtop machines. IMHO it is ALSO a small machine relatively speaking. That is what makes it a good choice for a garage shop or basement shop machine due to the fact that it CAN be broken down and moved downstairs. Yeah the parts are quite heavy but it is totally doable for a couple healthy fellows once in pieces. I am not a little guy but the only piece of my mill that I cannot carry by myself or with a bit of help is the base casting. That piece would be better with two healthy guys carrying it. Then it is manageable. I carried the head, the column, and TRIED to carry the base but it is just too much for me. I also only had to carry these parts a short distance say fifteen feet or so. These pieces are pretty damn heavy and care needs to be taken but again it is possible to move them down a set of stairs.

The shipping issues and complaints from IH customers have mostly been those ordering kits and turnkey machines. If you intend to buy a manual machine and convert it yourself I do not think that has been an issue assuming they have them in stock. MTW's machine is the same way as long as it is in stock you can get one relatively soon. Good luck again with whatever you choose. Honestly you had me fooled with your round column build as I seriously thought it was an RF31 machine from the pictures. Just goes to show you how easy it is to mistake the size of the different machines on the internet. Having watched Hoss's X2 build and pictures I honestly thought it was quite a good sized machine but then I actually saw one in Harbor Freight tools one day and could not believe how small it actually is. That thing is freakin' tiny!! It is a neat little mill but all of these machines are quite different in size and sometimes it is real hard to get a feel for just how big they really are. Honestly tho if what you were able to do with your round column machine is any indication of your skills and abilities with converting machines and using them I am quite anxious to see what you can do with an RF45 sized machine. Good luck man...cheers!!

Pete

[Maglin]

I would also say that in hind sight I should have just got the IH mill. Even with the issues and not needing the extra travels at the time. My decision was based on the money I had at the time. Didn't take into account how long I would have to wait to be able to get one. Had I known I could have easily saved up another $1K for the IH machine. In the end the mill is cheaper than all the stuff put into it to convert it. I'm including the time also involved.

Pete hit the nail on the head for the Bridgeports. They are heavy and fairly rigid but not like everyone makes them out to be. I've done like cuts on the same material on both machines and the BP was better but I even managed to get it's head bouncing around when feeding to much. I would say the RF45 is about 80% as rigid as my BP, but it's also an old round column M Head. I would love to have a Vee column J head but I couldn't afford any that where for sale in my area.

On a side note Matt at QMT did say he was working on getting the PM45 in a 3 phase with VFD. He said it requires a completely different head and that it wasn't able to be an option for the current 45's. So that might be showing up in the future. The IH I think I would get the base machine in the ISO taper spindle for future tool changer. The tooling is more but not by a large margin. Just makes you have to index your spindle for tool position and gives you rigid tapping capability in EMC2. Win win.

[arvidj]

I am also in the market and would like either the IH or the MTW version. I take that back. What I really want is a G3617\M1009\HM-52\ZX7550 but no one imports them anymore. If I knew of a reasonable way to import one from China I would as they seem to be popular and readily available in Australia and New Zealand and therefore not discontinued by the manufacturers.

When I talked to IH a couple of days ago, he had a shipment coming in any day, but all of them were spoken for. Next shipment would be the new design and he was hoping for early next year it sounded like. Also, the price oin the new design was going to be a little more.

Did IH say what "the new design" had over the old design? I would call and ask but I have left multiple messages and emails over the last month and none have been returned so what every you learned would be appreciated.

I have talked to Pat at MTW. The brokerage fee is about $85 and there is a 4.2% fee that the US government collects when you import the mill. Shipping seemed to be reasonable -- i.e. nothing strange because it was coming from Canada -- just about what I expected to get 1100 lbs to Minnesota.

If you decide you want 3 phase Pat has a 2hp motor that he would include in the box for $169. For me that had the advantage of (a) the regular single phase 2hp motor would get me going, (b) I would have a 3ph that would be a drop in fit when ever I wanted to hook it up, (c) I get to buy the VFD separately and can then match it to the ones I already have [169 for the motor and 300 for the VFD so 450 invested] and (d) I would have a spare motor.

I never discussed how much the motor was if he installed it and he does not mention a VFD on his site. But all of that would be subject to the 4.2% tax so the less on the invoice the better.

[skray775]

Here is a spread sheet I worked on last night. It is missing some of the shipping info
but i will update that when I get it. I added 5% rounded up for the duty fees to bring
in the M001 from Canada.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3c&output=html

I did some measuring and the 30 inch table of the MD001 is nice but that is going to make
for one large enclose in the shop. Not sure I want to give up the space but I will decide that
later.

Still no reply from IH. The email was in reply to the price sheet Tommy sent me so it shoul
be good but honestly a couple of those threads over on the IH section really put me off.