[photomankc]

Hmmm, They list EMC as officially supported on their own site. Even so, you could always obtain a cheap PC to try it out instead of their PC, even just get a different hard drive and use the existing PC. Nothing is altered in their control software that way and it can always be returned to it's original state. If they are saying that hooking up another PC to the parallel port to run the mill voids the warranty then there is no warranty since they sell machines without control PCs so how would one accomplish controlling such a machine in that case?

[zephyr9900]

Please don't take this wrong, Randy, but have you READ THE FLIPPIN' WARANTY?

Without limiting the generality of any of the exclusions or limitations described in other paragraphs, manufacturer’s warranty does not include any warranty that the machine or components will meet buyer’s production specifications or other requirements or that operation of the machine and/or components will be uninterrupted or error-free.

It is in the nature of CNC equipment to have glitches. You, as a self-interested user, COULD be taking measures to make your machine at least reliable, if not as fast as stock. But you would rather b***h about what you THINK Tormach should be doing and what you THINK the warranty might say. You were warned up front if you TOOK THE TIME TO READ THE WARRANTY.

This thread is beyond the point of amusement any more.

Good luck with your situation.

Randy

[photomankc]

Why should I be required to pay even half of the return cost? I have built a shop for this mill, and I’m out at least $1,000.00 in tooling and parts, not to mention my time and lost sleep.

You will not be compensated for your time and lost sleep, and nailing down a court case that you can win for a 100% refund on an intermittent failure that as of yet the cause for is unknown to both parties seems to me to be more time, money, and effort sunk into this while you sit with a broken mill in that shop.

That's why I say sometimes it's time to put the moral outrage aside and look at it practically, is it worth eating some loss to move on a be done with this. Even if you get a 100% refund the shop is built, the sleep is lost, the tools are broken. Will they take the mill back at all? Can you swing even the next baby-step up the hill to a production VMC, does the work coming in justify a loan to get started? If not, are you willing to accept it isn't going to get fixed over the phone and take on trying to get it working without regard to the letter of the warranty?

I think if you are expecting to get tooling, time or other costs out of them you are tilting at windmills.

[VaderSpade]

Like I said the warrantee is there solely to protect the manufacture, but Tormach’s advertising does make certain promises, they can’t have it both ways. I think everyone would agree this is not a case of the machine not living up to my expectations, this is a lemon and there are consumer laws in place.
As far as doing something myself, I have done EVERYTHING Tormach has ask me to do. I spend hours a day trying to figure this thing out; I don’t sleep at night going over these things in my mind. What would you have me do?

Please don't take this wrong, Randy, but have you READ THE FLIPPIN' WARANTY?

It is in the nature of CNC equipment to have glitches. You, as a self-interested user, COULD be taking measures to make your machine at least reliable, if not as fast as stock. But you would rather b***h about what you THINK Tormach should be doing and what you THINK the warranty might say. You were warned up front if you TOOK THE TIME TO READ THE WARRANTY.

This thread is beyond the point of amusement any more.

Good luck with your situation.

Randy

[joeybagadonuts]

Fella's,

Does the original poster actually want help from any of the Zone members?
It seems to me this thread is actually a mud slinging contest in disguise.
I wonder what the casual viewer thinks of our behavior?

JoeyB

[pete from TN]

I do not think he can reasonably expect to get payment for his time or even for the broken tools but I would be real surprised if after all this frustration and time spent trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with the damn machine that he should have to pay to return it. If it were me I would have already packaged it up on my own dime and then arranged for it to be picked up thru Tormach. Where did they say that they were willing to take the machine back? Maybe I missed it but this thread has been filling my email box rather quickly so I mighta missed it somewhere. If I were Tormach I would have already taken the machine back just to stop the freakin' bleedin'.... They have always treated me well with tooling and whatnot I have bought from them so I tend to side with them as it is easy for a disgruntled customer to blow things out of proportion. This fellow tho has at least honestly tried to troubleshoot and figure out what is wrong at some time and expense to himself. Again If I were tormach I would quickly do whatever is necessary to get this resolved and I could give a rats ass what the margin is on an $8600.00 machine. The poster already said he has invested considerably more than that on this venture and it is just time to stop the bleeding..... peace

Pete

[VaderSpade]

I want nothing more than to have this mill working, I’m willing to take my losses to this point "IF" they stopped now and I could get to work with a reliable mill. Tormach has straight up warned me to only do what they say and not to take advice from a board they sponsor.

I have read all the advice and I truly appreciate it much of which has been echoed by Tormach and tried. Most everything I’ve tried has cost money; I am willing to try a different operating system and computer. That will cost more money and may not help, but I am willing to try as long as it doesn’t give Tormach another excuse to place blame elsewhere.

Fella's,

Does the original poster actually want help from any of the Zone members?
It seems to me this thread is actually a mud slinging contest in disguise.
I wonder what the casual viewer thinks of our behavior?

JoeyB

[digitalmdi]

I'm waiting to see how it takes for this thread to disappear all together. Tormach pays a lot of advertising here.

[philbur]

But the same way signing a waver does NOT protect a zip line company from gross negligence; no warrantee protects the manufacture from selling dead on arrival products.

Are you saying that Tormach is guilty of gross negligence, are you saying that your PCNC 1100 was dead on arrival. If not why are you making such inflammatory statements when they have no bearing on the matter in hand.

Phil

[davidperry3]

Cut your losses and send it back!

[VaderSpade]

Are you saying that Tormach is guilty of gross negligence, are you saying that your PCNC 1100 was dead on arrival. If not why are you making such inflammatory statements when they have no bearing on the matter in hand.

Phil

The matter at hand is whether or not the warrantee limits my claim. These examples are simply examples of warrantees or disclaimers that do not apply in a court of law. All documents will be given some weight but when minimum expectations cannot be met from day one they don’t carry much if any weight.

Tormach can say we make no promises, but in fact their advertising does make certain claims.

[philbur]

Is that a yes or a no?

Phil

The matter at hand is whether or not the warrantee limits my claim. These examples are simply examples of warrantees or disclaimers that do not apply in a court of law. All documents will be given some weight but when minimum expectations cannot be met from day one they don’t carry much if any weight.

Tormach can say we make no promises, but in fact their advertising does make certain claims.

[Bob La Londe]

I'm waiting to see how it takes for this thread to disappear all together. Tormach pays a lot of advertising here.

LOL. I don't think it will disappear. Other similar type threads have just been locked and allowed to slowly get buried. I would be surprised and disappointed if it were deleted.

I want nothing more than to have this mill working, I’m willing to take my losses to this point "IF" they stopped now and I could get to work with a reliable mill. Tormach has straight up warned me to only do what they say and not to take advice from a board they sponsor.

I have read all the advice and I truly appreciate it much of which has been echoed by Tormach and tried. Most everything I’ve tried has cost money; I am willing to try a different operating system and computer. That will cost more money and may not help, but I am willing to try as long as it doesn’t give Tormach another excuse to place blame elsewhere.

As I mentioned before. LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) and Ubuntu are free. You can download a CD image with both on it to install on a computer right over top of or concurrently with Windows. Tormach should (in my opinion) be more than happy to provide a machine profile for it to see if it will help. (If not then my concern level would certainly rise.) Computers are relatively cheap these days.

If it works with LinuxCNC the problem is somewhere in the Mach setup. If it doesn't then its probably a problem with the machine controller. It would of course require regenerating the code to run under LinuxCNC with an (EMC2/LinuxCNC post processor) and executing it several times.

[photomankc]

Is that a yes or a no?

Phil

I understood what he was saying. Is this really useful?

[zephyr9900]

OK, one last post because I just met my wife for lunch and I'm in a good mood.

As I mentioned before. LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) and Ubuntu are free. [snip] Tormach should (in my opinion) be more than happy to provide a machine profile for it to see if it will help.

That would not help anything unless Tormach alters the profile from the acceleration they have set in the stock Series 3 setup.

Let's look at Randy's situation:

His hardware is good. No binding, grinding, excessive backlash, etc.
His motors and drivers are good.
His PC is good (he's proved this by duplicating his results on several PC's).
He can set up and zero his machine to a workpiece, jog it and run gcode for several days at a time.

What he is experiencing is a very intermittent glitch in the motion (and unless I am very mistaken, specifically on G0 moves). All his components are in tolerance, or Tormach would not have let his machine out the door. There is just some confluence of tolerances that lead, unfortunately, to enabling the glitch. On the bell curve of machines, his machine is a one-percenter. Or a half-percenter. Or a tenth-percenter. This is not something that any reasonable, conceivable final QC test would pick up on. If Randy sent his machine back to Tormach, or they came and picked it up, I am sure it would pass final QC again.

Since Randy's system is to all intents and purposes workable, what I would do is back off on the axis acceleration by maybe 25%. I think that that one change would make his machine rock-solid (that is what he's asking for, isn't it? If he had read even one of my numerous, opinionated posts on this thread he'd never have asked "What would you have me do?" a few posts up). While against the letter of Tormach's user agreement, I don't think they could fault him for backing off on machine parameters. You never hurt a stepper motor by driving it less hard. EDIT: Personally I'd also back off the step pulse width to 3us (Leadshine's datasheet says it only needs 1.5us). I was sloppy in typing earlier in the thread. I'd leave the direction delay at what Tormach has it at.

Anyway, I'm done posting. Really now.

Randy

[photomankc]

I thought Tormach required you to "unlock" Mach3 to adjust anything? Is that not still the case? This was the reason I suggested the EMC2 or scratch built Mach3 install. I tend to agree, I think if the rapids could be backed down as well as acceleration it might well run I just didn't think you could do that to the Tormach PC unless you asked them.

[philbur]

That would not help anything unless Tormach alters the profile from the acceleration they have set in the stock Series 3 setup.

I thought the accelerations were set in the motor tuning configuration menu in MACH, which for the Tormach version is locked and hidden. If you don't use MACH then they will not apply.

Phil

[philbur]

I understood what he was saying. Is this really useful?

Well done you, so was it a yes or a no?

We are discussing whether it is appropriate to sentence the accused after hearing only from the prosecution, or if a more balanced approached should be adopted. I got the impression that a lynch-mob was starting to form outside the sheriffs’ office, so in my rather clumsy way I was trying to head it off before it turned into a complete feeding frenzy. In this context yes I thought it was useful.

Phil

[photomankc]

Well done you, so was it a yes or a no?

....

In this context yes I thought it was useful.

Phil

He believes the mill never worked properly from day one as delivered. I grant that there may be argument on the term DOA and what that implies. His point was pretty clear to me, that statements made disclaiming any liability or responsibility do not necessarily mean it is so not that Tormach is a grossly negligent zip line operator.

I do think there is another side to the story, and we are never going to hear it. I'm not ready to throw up a rope but I do see a flaky mill that every so often smashes stuff, breaks tools, and ruins things as a sort of worst-case test and I'm still wanting to hear if Tormach has ever come back from pay all the shipping packing and a 10% restocking fee that I believe was the original offer. So far, if that's the offer for the degenerate case here I'm pretty underwhelmed.

I think there's a bit of ranting going on here too but I'd cut the guy some slack, I'd be ranting a bit too if I was in this boat at over what 12 to 14K and having to swap parts for weeks on end and never being truly certain it's right.

[pete from TN]

He believes the mill never worked properly from day one as delivered. I grant that there may be argument on the term DOA and what that implies. His point was pretty clear to me, that statements made disclaiming any liability or responsibility do not necessarily mean it is so not that Tormach is a grossly negligent zip line operator.

I do think there is another side to the story, and we are never going to hear it. I'm not ready to throw up a rope but I do see a flaky mill that every so often smashes stuff, breaks tools, and ruins things as a sort of worst-case test and I'm still wanting to hear if Tormach has ever come back from pay all the shipping packing and a 10% restocking fee that I believe was the original offer. So far, if that's the offer for the degenerate case here I'm pretty underwhelmed.

I think there's a bit of ranting going on here too but I'd cut the guy some slack, I'd be ranting a bit too if I was in this boat at over what 12 to 14K and having to swap parts for weeks on end and never being truly certain it's right.

+1....agreed. Peace

Pete