[MBG]

MBG,

Technically, you are titled a "machine operator". It takes a few years to earn the title, "machinist". But, if you take what you learned in school, if it was a good school, and apply it, if your supervisor gives you the freedom to do so, you will earn the title of machinist much quicker.

I think the qualifications may differ depending on the region you live. For instance, I live in Houston, Texas where apprenticeship for machinist programs are pretty much a thing of the past. Earning the title "machinist" is pretty much a self proclamed deal. However, in other parts of the country, apprenticeship or journeyman programs may be prevelant. Going through something like that may qualify you. Merely going through a technical college for a year to earn a certificate does not.

It sounds more to me like you are getting burnt out and not getting challenged enough, but welding is not a bad trade if that is what you want. It seems, in manufacturing, you pretty much have to pay your dues and prove to your employer that you will make them money before they begin to let you do more than just push a button. One of the biggest machine shops in Houston doesn't care what kind of technical training you have had, they are going to start you out in the burr shop before letting you get on a machine.

very true.. THAT IS WHY I am leaving this company.

[InspirationTool]

A quick comment:

If you are bothered by not being asked to do more complex jobs, just do the jobs without being asked. Ask to get a copy of drawings of parts that need to be done and design the workholding and toolpathing. Do it on your own time and show your boss the results.

-Jeff

[mxtras]

MGB -

I am with a few others here. I have answered a number of your questions over the last few months and watched your curiosity wander. I understand that you are searching for what you want. This is a common thing and it is a good thing.

However, I also notice that you seem to be extremely impatient. You can not come fresh out of school and expect to get a job making good, fun stuff. 99.9% of the jobs I have run never make it to the public eye and the same is true for probably everyone on this board. Your visions of the future are admirable but the reality is that it is not going to happen overnight. You have to learn to be patient.

My father taught me alot more than just how to do stuff. One of the things I learned from him is to do one thing and do it well. So my advice to you is to stick with something long enough to become good at it. Being good at something is not something you judge yourself - it is an honor given by others in the form of recognition and respect - earned, not self-given.

McGyver is the greatest machinist that ever graced a shop floor. Believe me? Of course not. But if you had numerous other people tell you such a thing, you would likely believe them as a group, right? Why not strive to make MGB the topic of such a discussion at your shop, or your town. Self-promotion is worthless. Praise or recognition from your co-workers and others is when you can start to believe that you are good at what you do. Nobody is going to come to you every week and say "Man, MGB, you really did a fantastic job this week". You will be lucky to hear something along those lines once a year.

You say it's just you and the owner in that shop? This is a situation I would have died for when I was learning. Like most here I am sure, I was thrown in with a group to learn in a company that employed 350 people. You have to focus and make learning a priority and not worry about success or recognition - it will come if you become good at learning. Pay attention and do what's expected and do it very well. Only make the mistakes once.

As far as taking the initiative and taking a complex part and running with it as suggested before?? I don't think that is good advice in this situation. The guy you work for might not enjoy you taking liberties with his equipment. There is a reason he hasn't turned you loose - you may think you know what's what, but he KNOWS what's what. You have to be patient and give him reason to put trust in your abilities and the sought after experience will come.

You have to have patience, MGB. Patience is sometimes measured in years, believe me.

Scott

[InspirationTool]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting *running* the part, only doing the planning and coding... no chips, just bits and bytes.

-Jeff

[MBG]

good advice to all.. but I just got rehired back with the company that laid me off.. Might think it is stupid but I really liked that company..

[MBG]

Oh yea and I am 20 years of age for those who were curious...

[Mcgyver]

MGB -

McGyver is the greatest machinist that ever graced a shop floor. Believe me?
Scott

Yup

[Klox]

Guys what's the difference between journeyman and apprenticeship? As i understand from this thread a machinist and a Tool & Die Maker is not the same. What's a Metal Machinist 1st Class? What's an Instrument Maker? You wonder why i'm asking all these randomly weird questions?
I'm emigrating to another 1st world country, i'm selling out. All my machines, tools etc. I need the money to start afresh in my new country. Now I'm an Instrument Maker (Scientific) by trade, i have nearly 15 years experience in wire edm and about the same amount in Press Tools (design, built, test etc, etc). I have done lots of components for the injection moulding industry too, but the only injection tool i did on my own was rather plain & simple.
What am I? A machinist? An Instrument Maker? A Cnc Programmer & operator for wire edm's? I have sympathy for people like MBG, i think we all would like to "better" ourselves, i think one stagnates when you fall in a groove of repitition work. It's sometimes hard to get out of it! There is so much stuff i would still like to learn in my sphere of career. Maybe this emigrating move will open new doors to exciting oppurtunities.....

NS. MBG, Patience, just a little patience. One day you'll look back on your career and you would smile when you remember the impatience of youth, all good things come in their own good time...take me for an example: I'm a slow thinker, a slow talker, a very slow typer (can only type with 2 fingers), i'm lazy by nature that's why electrical discharge machining fits me like a glove!!!LOL!

[Caprirs]

I own two CNC machining centers and am self employed. I make a decent living making parts for companies that cannot get the jobs done efficiently in house. I also have a Mech Engr degree from Univ. of Arizona. Having worked for the machine tool builder, most repairs to the machines are within my capabilities.

I call myself a machinist when talking to people who know nothing about the manufacturing world. When speaking to other machinists/manufacturing people, I'm quick to downplay my knowledge and describe myself as "trying to be a machinist."

Most of the knowledge I use everyday is based on "stealing", so to speak. No one was going to walk up to me and start training me so I asked questions until I got enough answers. I would find the books for the machines and software and start reading them on my own. Then asked questions to clarify something I read. You'd be amazed how a little flattery will get folks to reveal their Deep Knowedge of a subject.

I "'borrowed" a copy of Autocad and got a cheap book on "how-to use" and started teaching myself about 30 minutes each night. After a month or two, I could draw most things but I was still not a CAD person. Autolisp and xrefs are mysteries to me. Solids are still witchcraft. The CAM software was the same. Same with the machines.

The result is that I'm not really an engineer, nor a CAD/drafter, nor a machine service tech, nor a machinist. But for the niche market, I'm better than any one of those people as I can draw a print, set up a machine, and manufacture the finished parts. It's been 12 years since I got the BSME and working for 5 companies along the way to get here.

I'm never against school, but most of the "trade" schools are so far behind the real world that the student graduates with very old knowledge that doens't apply. Only the software classes related to CAD/CAM are likely to be up to date. If you spent a couple days at my place, I could teach you all you need to know to get started using a CNC vertical machining center. But learning to be a machinist is a trade that just takes a lot of years making a lot of mistakes and building a database of experience.

Sheesh, I can ramble on like an old man....

[MrWild]

I'm sittihg here and wondering to myself about a parodox here. Why go to a different country in hopes of a better life if you are a admitted lazy person? I can't imagine any couyntry thgat rewards laziness more than an industrious person.

The two year AA wonders, and the fresh faced college engineers have a possitive attitude that they know it all and deserve meteoric advances. I thyink the wrong attitude is what turns a lot ofold timers off to the youngsters. One of the things I've heard time and again is the phyrase, "Holy ****, I didn't Know you coiuld do this!" or "Holy ****, I didn't know that would happen!" Well, if ya didn't know, why do you feel you deserve top dollar?

I sympathise with people that want to learn and are stuck in dead end jobs. My suggestion is to look for the kind of shop that will let you grow. While you're out looking, take night courses on things you don't know. By taking nthe courses, you grow, show a wilingness and desire to grow, andby the showing of desire (and good grades help), you may be given the opportunity to grow where you're at. Many companies have programs that will pay your tuition. Of course many are performnance related. Where an "A" might get 100% reimbursement, a "C" may only see 50%.

I havea question. How can anyyone work in the trade for 15 years and have no idea of\what\a Tool Maker is and how they relate to Machinists, Machine Operators, and floor sweepers?

A machine operator comes in and runs one machine. There is a gray area here as I have known some machine operators I'd call machinists, and other operators justa step above button pushers. Does then operator get blueprints, pull steel and bring it to the print specs? Does the machine operator load a program, take a tub of parts, set the limits, find edges, and some other low level machine operations? For me on this issue the dividing point is the reading of the print and making all choices and decisions to get the finshed part out.

Machinists usually know more than one machine in thre tool room. A Tool Maker can give a machinist and give nearly print from the die and have it made. Lathe work, millwork, grinding, drilling, and welding. If the machinist also kinowssome specialty machines like an EDM, jig bore or jig grinder, so much the better. Quite a bit of difference from a machine operator here.

A Tool Maker? Just think godly and you're close. :bs: :stickpoke:

[JavaDog]

I'm sittihg here and wondering to myself about a parodox here. Why go to a different country in hopes of a better life if you are a admitted lazy person? I can't imagine any couyntry thgat rewards laziness more than an industrious person.

Check his info:

Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa

[Klox]

Mr Wild, i have expected a somewhat more elaborate answer.... The lazy statement was a tongue in the cheeck statement, as edm is a slow expensive process, one must have the right temperament to do this type of machining. It's not like taking a cut on let's say a manual lathe, measure, adjust and then take the final cut to size. The first cut must be spot on. Yes, the newer controls on edm's has things like Auto Cut Maker to help the operater/programmer choose the right offset but it can't replace good old fashioned experience.

I know precisely what an Tool & Die Maker is. It's a very good trade, the cream of the mechanical trades.....
Do you know precisely what an Instrument Maker do? Just keep in mind that there are different categories of Instrument Makers as there are different categories for Tool & Die Making.....
I agree with you on the explanation of a machinist and operator......

Lastly, yes i'm from South Africa. A wonderfull country with vast oppurtunities BUT only if your political correct. Let me elaborate: There is so much corruption in our economy at this stage that if one gives out work there's nearly a 100% chance that you will receive scrap work at hefty price tags. The reason......in our economy it's not what service you can render it's who you know and also how much grease you can put in someone's else's palms.....

The other day i gave out some turning work to reputable company around the corner. Lots of radii, angles, etc, stuff you can do on a manual lathe but time consuming.....
What i got back after the "CNC expert" had his turn was horrible crap. (A H7 tolerance that came out 0.2 mm oversize!!! Concentrity that whas more than 0.5mm for a component rotating at high speed, just think what would happen at full revs....) The surface finish was a thriller! In the end i did the stuff myself on my manual lathe. I went back to show the guy what i actually wanted in the first place. His words: "i don't have the time and skill for such fiddly jobs".......

Mr Wild thanks for your inputs on my questions, i'm not taking offense. I think you have said what needs to be said.....but i would still like to hear the elaborated episode LOL!

[MrWild]

Well gosh, you offset to the side that's scrap! LOL I agree that with a wire edm you have a one shot deal to make it right. Depending on length of the cut, the material, and the phase of the moon, by the time the wire gets from here to there, the metal might distort causing what in all rights is the correct program to turn out scrap.

I cant imagine an economy so out of whack that crap is passed off as good and the crap is paid for. I just did a conversion of .2mm. I’m appalled that a shop with a computer controlled machine couldn’t hold .008” tolerances. Was that total, or the range? +-.1mm, or +-.2mm? One is huge, and the other is ridiculous for a CNC lathe to have missed by. That sort of tolerance wouldn’t have been tolerated where I worked (retired). My belt drive 16” swing Southbend lathe out in my shop will hold within .001TIR with finagling. Production will hold +-.003” That’s not out of round, that’s size. Out of round? How did they do that? A loose chuck?

Instrument maker? I only met one and he wasn’t a good example of any trade. If you mean finagling silly tight tolerances and you need to use a Sheffield shadow gauge to show a .0003 range just to check, and you’re only allowed +-.0001, then yes I have done it and it can be trying at times. I used to think the tolerances were useless due to the fact the engineers never put a temperature this sort of tolerance was to be taken at. Too big by a couple of tenths and you know it will be extremely frustrating to get the part back in the centers? Just chill the shaft and bingo, you got it nailed. Too small? QA it warm. And the range of warm to cool isn’t very large at all.

Your first post of checking out South Africa made me think you wanted to go there. Where would you go from South Africa? I heard New Zealand’s economy isn’t too swift either. Not corrupt, just not happening. Great roads for motorcycles though… If I were young again, I’d seriously consider Australia.

I’m glad I didn’t offend you. I tend to be opinionated and sometimes I have to watch that my opinions don’t offend.

[Klox]

Mr Wild,
It's actually humorous to hear that you did not think much of that instrument maker you've met at some stage of your life. To be a qualified artisan does not mean you're a good artisan. I know some instrument makers myself, to be honest i would not let them touch my machines......
I also know some tool & die makers that i would classify as fallen "gods". I think the essence of a good artisan boils down to the fact: "the quest for zero defect" (if i may borrow this line from national panasonic) LOL!
Then i know a fitter & turner that i highly regard as a master artisan....

I would not recommend ANYONE to come and work and live in South Africa! You may wonder why? The probability to become a crime statistic is very, very high. To get murdered for a mobile phone is a real threat. To get murdered in your own bed at night is a real concern. To always be on "code red alert" about the safety of your family and yourself is emotionally tiring, i can go on and on.....

At this stage i see that Canada, Australia and New Zealand have oppertunities for artisans.

There is nothing wrong to be opinionated. I prefer it to the pragmatic behaviour most people have........

Lastly: The job i told you was not out of round. It was a spool for a fly reel. The inner hole for the bushes was 21.2mm in dia instead of 21.0mm with a upper tolerance of +0.025mm and a bottom tolerance of -0.00mm.
The hole and the outer rim was not on the same centre point. The outer rim's centre point was off set about 0.5mm, it does not seem like a too big problem. But the widest tolerances on the whole design is +-0.05mm. A tolerance easily acheaved on a manual machine, by using a good decent vernier......