[Moricncman]

We are looking at buying a new multi tasking machine either a Mori NT2000 or a Okuma multus B300W any advise on this would be great.

[dak1]

If you want this type machine with the best overall capabilities, stay with Mori or Mazak in my opinion. We ended up with a Mazak J-300 Integrex several months ago. Mori is quite pricy in comparison, but a good machine. We looked at Mori, Mazak, Okuma, & Doosan & the Mazak won overall. We were not trying to cut corners or pinch pennies, just get the most for the money. The Mori & the Mazak both have TRUE Y axis rather than compound Y's. This is major for maintenance reasons. As a result, they both have extended travels in the Y axis & in the X below centerline (with a Z-axis oriented tool) over the Doosan & the Okuma. From someone whose been dealing with X-axis travel limitation since 2001, this was a major factor for us!! (Polar Coord Interp is NOT ALWAYS the desired method or answer).

As you get comfortable with the technology, this will also proove itself as a factor to you. These machines are not "Turning" centers capable of milling. They are "Machining" centers capable of turning. This is also why Fixture offsets are so important. Okuma has not yet realized that. You can get 300 fixture offsets on the Mori & Mazak & I beleieve even the Doosan (Fanuc control). Okuma says "why do you need fixture offsets on a turning center?" And "we can write some macros". NOT the answer!!!

Also, pay attention to tool ready time. Watch any machine your considering in action. We looked at some Mori NT4250 machines (bigger than the 2000) at a site close to us. It quickly became very apparent to us that we'd be waiting for tools probably 90% of the time. Not tool change time, but the time it took to return & transfer tools to the ready station was slow. It was not affecting this particular user much as they were doing mostly heavier milling & the tool cycle times were such that the ready tool was there and waiting. We do a lot of hole making & short mill cycles, & that would not have been the case for us.

In short, get lots of fixture offsets, the most travel in Y, the most travel below X centerline you can, & don't buy the "wedge" or "compound" Y's are more rigid pitch. If that were the case, why do most machining centers have true Y's? It's just that some builders haven't yet realized that these are not "turning centers". Mazak & Mori have.

If you have any other specific questions, I'm more than happy to help.
Dave

[Moricncman]

Thanks for your input on this I will take this to my boss.

[dak1]

Your welcome.

Another consideration to take into account is REQUIRED rigidity. I say required because the Mori is a more rigid machine. Stouter castings & dual ballscrews (DCG). Arguably, overkill for our applications, but probably not so for the user doing the heavier milling on the NT4250's. Our parts are all barfeed work (up to 3.0 dia.) unsupported on the end as we don't have the "justifiable" need for a sub spindle. Therfore, the workpiece rigidity itself tends to become the weak link before the machine hinders the process much.

Dave

[dak1]

I ran across these youtube links & thought you may be iterested. Let me know what you think. The I-series is kind of an upscale version of the J-series (more bells & whistles).

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E6rNOFxEMM]Mazak Integrex i-200S - 5X 5-axis - Addy Machinery - YouTube[/ame]

[dak1]

Here's the J.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThhTglTjhpY]Mazak Integrex j-200 - New Affordability in Super-Multitasking - Addy Machinery - YouTube[/ame]

[Moricncman]

Thank for this information I will show them to are ME and see what he thinks it looks like we would need the I series for the full 5 axis type work.

[dak1]

I think you're right. And on the 200 size machine, the I has a 30 HP milling spindle (standard) versus 10 HP on the J. 10 is not enough (at least for us). The 300 is 30 & as far as I know we haven't stalled it yet. We are doing some work that a 10 definitely would not handle at current conditions. These are a couple of the bells & whistles features of the I series (& why it cost more $$). Another nice thing about the Mazak over the Mori is where the tool chains are located. Mazak is right at the front of the machine, easily visible & accessible to the operator. Mori is on the left end of the machine (around the corner, behind the bar feeder). If you run a bar feeder.

How SAD is this? ME, of ALL people sounding like a Mazak salesman. WOW. 15 years ago or so, I declared I hated Mazak & would never vote to buy one. This is the 2nd one I have voted for & would do it again (for this type of machine).

[cnc-prog]

We have a Multus B-300 W and when it was running it did a good job. We have had various electonics go bad. Also, the B-axis is not very sturdy. We had many problem with the B "head" going out of alignment. We have always very gentle with the machine...never been crashed and very light cuts, loads etc. Okuma's service always aligned the machine which took forever and very expensive (last time $6500--all labor). Alot of "guessing" trial and error in adjusting the parameters to bring everything back in. Then we cut one part only to have it go out again (biggest cut using a 0.250 ball EM). I would never suggest to buy another Multus ever again! We will never make money with this machine!! Also as previously posted...offsetting milling tools does not work on polar cuts. Very bad product...time for Okuma to come clean!

[dak1]

WOW!!! I'm glad we ruled them them out of the realm of possibilities early in the game. But, for me having dealt with mill-turns since the early 90's, it was clearly apparent what possible issues we may have run into due to the limitations of the machine. Okuma generally builds very good quality machines, but you can't compete in a market unless you truly understand the capabilities required for that market & design the product to meet those requirements. That's where they fall short here.

Dave

[underthetire]

I agree. Okuma is behind in many markets. They build quality stuff, but are unwilling to make needed changes in a timely manner. I remember the pain of just trying to get extra Mcodes on machines. You had to fill out a form, explain why you wanted them, how you were going to connect to them, then sign a waiver. Everyone else either already had extra mcodes or you simply just ordered them with the machine.

I do agree with the Mori/Mazak in this particular case, even though i'm really not a fan of Mazak.

[dak1]

I never have been either, but for this type of machine, I'll give them (Mazak) a lot of well deserved credit. The control is quite finicky I have to say, but once the quirks are found & the post processor changed, "she" runs like a champ. (We run all eia & it is finicky). If I we're looking for a HMC, Makino starts at the top of the list by a big margin.

About 2 weeks ago on our Okuma 400mm HMC (MX40HA I believe), we had an aquired boring head with a reverse bar which required the spindle run CCW. One of the guys reprogrammed it on our CAM system using the original tooling. He ran it with a drill cycle (fine for the application). When the machine read the G81, it kicked into CW (M3) spindle direction. The operator noticed so it didn't crash. We were told CW spindle is hard coded into the canned cycles as a "SAFETY" feature (except reverse tapping). We were also asked "Why would you want to do that"??? While I don't like the tool & prefer to change the bar, there was a reason. It leads me to wonder why they would allow spindle CCW in any feed mode. I'll admit though, I haven't tested this to see what the Fanuc's do with this scenario.

[cnc-prog]

Yes, I would agree Okuma is known for building quality machines. We still have an LB-15 Okuma lathe with an awesome history and still very accurate. Very minor normal maintenance items on a machine that is about 15 years old. But the newer advanced machines is where they lag behind. And the technincal support Okuma USA recieves from Japan seems very poor. It seems Okuma Japan just give USA the manuals without very much hands on support. Just my two cents...but unfortunately I doubt we will ever make lemonade from our lemon.

Anybody else out ther with a bad Okuma Multus experience?

[underthetire]

Don't want to hijack, but I really don't see much difference between a mori horizontal or a makino. In fact mori stole a bunch of makino engineers way back. I'd have to see who gave me the better deal on that one.

[dak1]

If you look strictly at the machine & $$$, you're correct. Friendly service & support??? Mori has a lot of ground to make up for me. Our maintenance guys would probably come after me with a dagger if everything else was even keel, & we went Mori. Simply put, we've had EXCELLENT experience with Makino all the way around, can't say that for the other.

[dak1]

We are looking at buying a new multi tasking machine either a Mori NT2000 or a Okuma multus B300W any advise on this would be great.

Just curious about any progress or opinions you've made on this.

[dak1]

I really don't see much difference between a mori horizontal or a makino

Re-read the post. I didn't say there was much difference in the MACINES themselves. It's the service & support that makes the difference. In 10+ years of running a Makino, I don't think we've ever had to wait more than 4 hours to get an actual Makino service tech in here. And we only own 2 Makinos, so we are not a big, high priority account. Aside from that, the reliability of those 2 machines has been nothing short of outstanding. As long as they keep doing what they're doing for us, they will continue to have my loyalty.

Now back to the Multi-tasking subject (which I wish Makino would build).

[Moricncman]

We have went with the Mori NTX2000 just a much better machine for the money.

[dak1]

It is a nice machine. Have fun with it.