[roughneckstuff]

Hello and thank you all in advance for your wisdom and experience. I am a total newb to this forum as well as to manufacturing in general. I apologize in advance for my illiteracy in this field. This question may have been posted before somewhere else in this forum so any redirection is greatly appreciated.

I am researching a custom wheel idea we have but not sure how to get it from concept to reality. I know we have a lot of research to do and I am hoping to get some good intel from you all.

This wheel will be for trucks at first and I'm thinking about a 18x9 and 20x9. Aluminum, Mag, no idea what would be better or what the options are.

I'm also assuming I will need 3D CAD illustrations to give to a machinist. Not sure where to go to find someone who can do it as well as not screw me cause I'm a newb.

Hub sizes, offsets, etc? I am hoping that there is someone here with experience working with wheel design and manufacture and can point me in the right direction to accomplish this project.

Thank you again for all your help.

Brad Cantrell

[AMCjeepCJ]

I'll help you out with questions, I build motorcycle wheels... No time tonight though, watching Grimm!

[roughneckstuff]

Thanks for your help.

So where do I start? Am I even on the right path?

[txcncman]

I guess you are on the right path. I do not have the technical data you seek. That would best be found from a direct automotive source, such as a master mechanic or your local dealerships. You can possibly get the data from online searches as well.

Here is screen shots of a basic wheel drawn in MasterCam.

[txcncman]

Here is a screen shot with the center hole pattern added.

[sarel.wagner]

I am planning on designing a wheel as well, so subscribed Do not currently have any info on the process but will share what I find. Managed to get a 3D model of a basic wheel design.

Rgrds

[roughneckstuff]

Who or where should I look to have someone draw up my wheel design in 3D like this? Once its drawn, is this what I need to give to my manufacturer assuming its someone else? Or do most MasterCAM users also manufacturer?

Also, do I understand correctly that I can request a quote for work in this forum? That would be AWESOME!!!

[AMCjeepCJ]

DESIGN:

Well the good news is you're making it a lot more complicated than you need to at first. I'm not going to get into testing for structural soundness of a design right now BUT the first thing to do is figure out the center hole, bolt pattern and then make yourself a simple scaled 2D cad file of that info and print it out. (Remember, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of ways to do this, some are better than others and you can make it more complicated if you want but I'll keep it simple here.)

You don't need cad to design the wheel, not right at first at least. Just take a pencil and sketch the design, it doesn't need to be perfect as long as it gets the effect close enough so that you can scan or take a picture to input into a CAD system later. You only want to draw one spoke! (Like I said before, don't over complicate the process your first few times and yes there are faster NOT better ways of doing this later.)

(The following is not necessarily what I do everytime now but what I did starting out.) I have a few raster/vector conversion software programs on my laptop but normally I still place points manually most of the time because I'm extremely fast at it and I know where to place two points for linear entities and where to drop three for arcs and other things, this saves me from having to erase ALL of the raster/vector conversion entities later.

After I get the points, I draw in the lines and arcs. Then I look at the dimensions for geometrical and mathematical patterns, in other words, if multiple arcs obviously were supposed to be the same, I spend the time finding an arc that is a good average and a nominal size.

Once you get ALL of the details sized and proportional (2D at this point still even if your design should end up extremely 3D) you can do a few different things. If you want to render it, use these hard points and dimensions to build up a 3D model and render it. Depending on the wheel blank you are tarting with you'll need to contact the company and request a 3D model of the blank you are going to use. (I do NOT do this step because I build motorcycle rim only and unless I'm using a 3D blank I have my own method for this step.)

Depending on the specific software you use I can't help you with the CAD work beyond basic principles. I use high end, low end and free software together to build wheels but I will say that it is entirely possible to build the most complicated wheels on the market today with a $50 seat of Bobcad version 21 if you actually learn to use it well, I mean from start to finish, CAD and CAM.

I have photos posted on here somewhere of some wheels I built YEARS ago that are still to this day more complicated that anything you'll find in production currently and was able to get a great finish that did not even require polishing before being chromed at Meclec. Those were done with not only Bobcad but old broken cutters that I picked up out of a ditch in Tulsa, Oklahoma when my tool cart tipped over in my trailer on my way back to Michigan after graduating from Bible school. Luckily I heard it and was able to recover most of my endmills and whatnot but they did get chipped when they bounced off the pavement.

I'll be honest, I'm a fourth generation machinist and I don't require good cutters, super expensive equipment or high end software to build very much. A good grasp of cutter geometry, feeds and speeds, stopovers, tool loads, effective tool paths, roughing parameters, finishing routines, precision setups and imaginative dampening methods to elimate problematic harmonic buildups in my parts, fixtures and machines allows me to build pretty much anything including "billet" lifelike chain links on a 3 axis machining center. (My chain links are not that crap you see online, I've never released any photos to the public, it was strictly a design exercise to see how it could be done without special software for undercuts, just Bobcad at the time.)

My machine times are incredibly fast compared to what I've seen from most manufacturers videos also but since I don't have employees to keep in one piece I understand exactly why they do what they do.

MANUFACTURE:

I won't assume anything since I've answered these types of questions here before assuming a little more than I should.

Did you locate a company that sells pretreated, forged aluminum blanks already? You should not EVER make wheels out of solid stock, especially for a car or truck. There is a lot of info on the web as to why this is a very bad idea. I'll leave those kinds of explanations to metallurgists.

Your 2D design should be enough along with a basic render in 3D to get a machinist up to speed on what you are after. You'd be amazed at many times it's takes longer to machine a 3D model of a wheel than if the customer just came in with a pencil sketch or a nice 2D outline of everything and let me optimize and actually program it myself. Using CAM software to write all of the tool path verses writing 2.5D tool path for drops, radius and drafted cutters (when applicable) can often times be HUGE waste of time because not only does it many times take much longer to cut ($$$$) it also means EVERYTHING needs to be polished before chrome or anodizing can take place.

STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY:

FEA is great but it can also be garbage in....garbage out, so it depends who you hire. Why not make a physical prototype and send it out for destructive testing.

As for DOT regulations on a vehicle wheel (other than motorcycles) you're going to have to find out the procedures required. Remember, your wheel may look strong but cars and trucks are subject to extreme loads that motorcycle wheels are not. I'm not just talking about the physical weight of the vehicle but the extreme side loads that a bike never experiences due to the inherent nature of a motorcycle leaning in curves.

TIDBITS:

One bit of general advice, in general you need more cross sectional strength the closer to the center of the rim and near the outside you can be MUCH less concerned do to the far less leverage the spokes see at the outside verses the center.

(I can't go into much more detail here because it's a trade secret for ultra fast machining speeds but any competent machine shop should be able to machine your prototype at this point.)

Feel free to ask more questions, in my opinion manufacturing wheels is not a complicated endeavor BUT having said that, my dad was literally born and raised in my grandpas machine shop until he was around eight with his four brother and sisters. From the age of five on, I had a complete machine shop in my house capable of building plastic injection molds and including my grandpa, dad, uncles and male cousins, only one is no longer a machinist and only two do not own their own shop. So having said that, in all honesty my opinion of what is straight forward is quite jaded since its all I've ever known~

(I live out in the boonies so the only Internet access I have at my house currently is my iPad and iPhone over 3G, I can't post pics from my laptop at my house but I can at my shop where I have broadband. I'll try to post a few pics this week if I can to show the different steps and the results. Pictures are DEFINITELY worth at least a hundred thousand words in this case.)

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

If you plan on designing, manufacturing and selling wheels that will actually be used get ample liability insurance.

Dick Z

[AMCjeepCJ]

I never thought to ask, are you planning on starting a company or just a set or your own truck? Sounds like you want to into business doing this type of thing. Since you're obviously no direct competition to me I will honestly tell you, in my opinion the risk is not worth the reward. I only got into it because I was severely injured and could not ride motorcycles any longer plus I already owned the equipment. I'll gladly give you pointers if I can but if you're really serious about doing this professionally I have a guy in Florida you really ought to speak with. He has major financial backing, a very nicely designed wheel, good web presence and marketing and the market is so flooded with competitors he's having an absolutely rotten time moving product. My market is one off's, I've never pursued production wheels up to this point because the really good money is in protypes and onesies for me personally. Plus all my equipment and shops are paid for so I have no overhead, not even employees.

I wish you luck but if you're serious about this, get your feet wet ith other products that aren't so suseptible to get you sued and kill someone if there are mistakes made. I had a wheel I built fail once but fortunately is was built to the customers specs and I didn't charge him to make it. No one was hurt and he was being incredibly stupid but lots of people lose to STUPID lawsuits.

Post a hand sketch of a design, not the one you want to produce but one you thought of and worked beyond. I'll help you walk though the process if you'll do the work and post the results here for all to see.

[roughneckstuff]

AMCjeepCJ, THANK YOU very much for all the intel. Your knowledge and experience I am most impressed with and thankful for.

My plans are to design this one wheel and sell it to the masses. At this point, I have 3 designs that I am toying with, one of which I am REALLY looking forward to. I do have a target market in mind that I feel quite confident they will do well in. There is the possibility that they could be popular in other markets, but that will be the added bonus . I will be sure and get the liability insurance for sure. I have inquired into this already.

I have a drafter who normally works with 2D architectural drawings who is helping me out with another project. He isn't very confident that he can do the rim but will give it a shot. He needs the work right now.

I have a photoshop image of my concept wheel that I put together. Do you think that would work for my initial "sketch"? I will post when I get back to my personal computer. I am on my work laptop now so no imagery available.

Thanks again to you all.
Brad

[AMCjeepCJ]

Tell your buddy not to worry, it's a wheel and NOT an aerospace part. The idea is for it look nice and have good machinability. It's the exact opposite of what we are taught when drafting or learning CAD.

Literally anything will work, wait until you see the fax I got and the wheel I built~

[roughneckstuff]

Here is the design that I want to create. The entire thing will be all chromed out with the exception of the little black dots on the gold spokes (maybe). What say the Ol Mighty Ones of the CNCZone?

[txcncman]

Pretty ambitious for a first project. Good luck.

[AMCjeepCJ]

Yikes man! I wouldn't want to machine something like that,there wouldn't be any money in it for you to resell, lol~

That is a pretty detailed design, looks like you need to find someplace that will cast wheels for you. Just a quick FYI, your design isn't balanced but I'm assuming you would pick just one of the three spokes on it and stick with that design? The inconsistencies are near the center of the wheel so you might get away with it with minimal balancing, so you might be fine. I've made imbalanced brake rotors several times and gotten away with it because rotors have such a small radius verses the wheels. You have a similar situation here.

Just stay away from undercuts and you should be fine. It looks like "tooth sockets" in the "jawbone" looking thing might be powder coated black to get it to look recessed?

Crazy design, I wouldn't want to have to keep them clean...good luck!

[AMCjeepCJ]

Here's how I'd probably tackle that design after looking at it closer. I'd make the gold "jawbones" take 100% of the load and stress in the wheel and you could machine or cast that, casting would be a lot more expensive in small quantities but cheaper in large quantities than machining them. You can remachine parts of them after casting and get the look you're after.

The spiked balls you could fairly easily have lost foam cast at a decent foundry and you could machine the backs to mechanically attach to your wheel. It would give you the advantage of being able to chrome or anodize the wheel and powder coat the balls for an interesting contrasting effect. The big thing about lost foam casting these balls separate is that you could make the balls 3D and make them with the undercuts you're after. Another thing to consider is that it would theoretically be possible to core out a tiny area in the back of the balls while machining a flat back and tapping some holes to near perfectly balancing your unbalanced design. Did that make sense? It would probably only take drilling a few holes of various diameters or depths.

What's your next step?

[roughneckstuff]

Ambitious is right!!! I don't know why it would be so hard to manufacture? I took no time at all to build it in photoshop lol. JK.

To be honest, I am not really sure what the next step is. Thats why I wanted to consult with you guys. I was hoping I could find someone who could draw this up in a program that could easily be uploaded to a CNC Machine and then just cut it out. I figured there would be a lot more to it, none of my ideas are ever simple.

I was hoping a three spoke design, cut using a CNC machine might be possible and like you said, use bolt on rollers (spiked balls). Sounds easy enough to the untrained newb/person who doesn't have to build it lol.

If it were your design and you wanted to build it, who would you talk to next?

[AMCjeepCJ]

If it were your design and you wanted to build it, who would you talk to next?

Ummm, if it were me, I'd take myself to Taco Bob's, buy myself a Sancho Combo with a Dr. Pepper and their new inferno sauce and talk to myself~

[roughneckstuff]

I'll buy the combo if you wanna give it a whirl (flame2)

[AMCjeepCJ]

I'm not interested in tackling this particular project, so having said that:

-How many are you planning on running for a first run?

(You can't build one from a rotary forged blank for destructive testing if you intend to cast them in production.)

-How much money do you have set aside for this project?

(Answer it here but stay away from CNCzone solicitations, you'll find the vendors you need on your own.)

-What is your timeframe?

(The golden rule of manufacturing: You can have it fast, accurate or cheap... Pick any two~)

What's your anticipated MSRP for your finished wheels at a given size?

(Pick one popular size to start and work from there.)

What are any fixed costs that you know of?

(approximate costs for chrome, shipping, packaging, advertising costs, trade shows, auto shows, magazines, online and print.)

Who are your contacts inside the industry?

(Don't name drop but for instance I know the feature editors of several large magazines and can talk directly to them if needed.)

BUILDING IS THE EASY PART! I usually tell people not to expect any sales from a show, you're there to network but don't EXPECT to make money, if you try to sell in my experience it typically puts people on the defensive like you're trying to take their money. I give away as much free info as possible to help people solve their problems and THAT is what drives my sales. I've been to several Daytona Bike weeks where I will sit for ten days not talking to anyone who doesn't ask a question first, except that I'll say hello or how are you doing. I just bring a wheel to polish and spend all week working on something, lol, everybody feels comfortable approaching a vendor who is working on something because it's fun to watch. I get a LOT of leads that way~

So what's your next step? How old are you? What is your prior experience that you could leverage to your advantage? Who do you know that has special skills?

I have a very good friend who is an Evangelistic missionary and I hired him because he's covered in tattoos and talks waaaaay too much to just go up to vendors at Daytona our first year and strike up conversations about what we did as a company and once he'd break the ice and make friends at their first question he'd say, "Actually I don't know, I'm just the mouth, Carl is the brains so you'd have to ask him." at which point he would call me on my cell or come find me and bring me back later.

I set up at three Daytona Bike weeks on Main street and one Myrtle beach for exactly $0 because we were invited to setup with vendors we made from his mouth and my skillset. They paid upwards of $14,000 for their spot for ten days in some circumstances! I even took my younger sister to Myrtle beach for a week once and we were put up in a condo on the end of a spit in the ocean...$0. We had more free food, went to more free concerts and met more insiders than you could imagine. All because I answered their questions and helped solve their manufacturing problems. If you don't have contacts, figure out what you do have, a design isn't anything unless you have a finished product.

I picked up a customer once just by being referred from the guy who sold me my mill and all I did when I stopped by his shop was bring a few samples and say I built these. Less than half an hour later he had me reading resumes of potential hires and offering to pay me to hire him a competent machinist. That job ended up having my next set of wheels being on ESPN2 during a NASCAR event at MIS. That was all because of the dude that sold me a machine years before.

I won't get into the details on his next one but my dad and I made around $150,000 over a couple years all because a huge ice cycle fell off my roof and shattered my satellite dish. The repairman came out and I struck up a conversation with him that three months later after he was fired and went to work for another business turned into a decent contract because he remember my favorite phrase, "I can build anything or at least, no one has proved me wrong yet!"

Just remember, building the wheels are the easy part. Like I said, I have a guy in Florida you should give a call if you want to know what's really involved in starting from scratch. He could help you a LOT on automotive wheels, just don't take anything as discouraging, it's just not as simple as most people think... The only real reason I did it easily is because I had the skills and equipment to do it without paying much money out of pocket at first since I didn't have a ton of cash to throw at that new venture~