[pete from TN]

Dunno if anyone is still interested in this sad saga here but I figure I will post for my own amusement. Right now I have been actively searching for a professional technician to look over the machine and see if he can figure out just what the hell is wrong with it. Well after posting on a couple forums and waiting patiently for a response with no luck I finally called Rob Varney back and asked him to see if he can give me a name of a reputable Cincinatti experienced technician that was somewhat close to me. Well Rob came thru again and gave me a name of a fellow in Georgia. I spoke to this fellow on the phone and told him the whole troublesome sad story of everything that has occurred and everything I have done thus far. He seemed to be very knowledgeable about my machine and apparently has customers who have the same machine and control today. After all of that explanation I asked him what he would charge and how he would proceed. Much to my surprise he told me that we had basically covered all of the things he would be checking and gave me some recommendations about what to do. Before I can do any of that I need to send off the Y axis to get refurbished with a warrantee and then once it comes back we have a plan to try to get this machine running. There are several items he told me to check out and some other things he recommended and I intend to follow his advice to the letter. If this does not work the plan is to have him come up here and look it over himself but he insisted that it is not really necessary at this point which kinda surprised me.

Anyways, if this plan fails and then if he cannot fix it the following step will be to look back at the retrofit possibilities again. Hoping for a good result as usual with the pro's recommendations. We shall see how this goes.

In the mean time I had some rather good luck today. I managed to get hired into a machinist position at a local shop that is exactly 10.5 miles from my front door. They are starting me reasonably well in the pay area and carry a full benefits package and I am quite excited to get there and learn and work for them. They have a large shopful of all nearly new Haas Machining centers and lathes and they are gonna train me on their machines and also their mastercam software. Initially I will just be running some parts they have already designed but once I am familiar with the Haas control and running their mills I will be doing some programming and setup as soon as I feel comfortable with it. This is exactly the kind of thing I have been looking for as I do not want to just run machines someone else programs and I had a very long discussion with the owner and shop manager today about what I have been doing and what I would like to be doing and it seems they are wanting someone to be able to step in and setup and program parts to take some of the load off of them. I am quite excited to be back to work again and doing what I want to be doing. I am NOT abandoning my own shop and much to my surprise they actually told me that they will probably ask me if I want to machine parts on my machine if they cannot get to them so it appears that once I get this machine running again they will farm out some business to me they maybe don't want or don't have time or open machines to get to. This would be really sweet and I did not even ask for this they just offered it. I start first thing monday morning there wish me luck I am gonna need it. LOL

The tubing bender is completed and I am going to be ordering initially two sets of dies so I can build some custom bumpers and roof racks and with any luck I should be able to do that very soon. Unfortunately I have had several folks contact me recently wanting CNC mill work but I could not help them so the push is gonna be to get the machine fixed with it's original control so I can use it and if all goes well with my new fulltime job I will be running it on the side until I can afford a quality retrofit down the road.

This project is still on track despite all the setbacks and I intend to get it working as soon as possible. The Y axis is supposed to be repaired inside of three weeks so it will be awhile before I can tinker on it again but for the time being I will be pretty damn busy learning the Haas control and hopefully building tube bumpers and stuff with my bender in my spare time. I am glad things are looking up I was beginning to feel like I had a black cloud over my head here lately. Kinda depressing that is for sure. Anyways, I hope all of you are doing well and running the berries off your mills. I hope to join you soon LOL....peace

Pete

[rwskinner]

That is great news Pete!! I'm glad your catching a break and landed a good job. You deserve it bud.

Richard

[pete from TN]

Hey thanks man I just hope I can pick up what they need me to learn quick enough they are definitely NOT playing games over there. I am anxious to also get some more time on a VMC and learn more. They seem to ALL have renishaw tool probes and spindle probes as well. Interesting stuff and it seems like they MOSTLY make steel parts over there. Should be an interesting job and so far it seems like a very clean professional shop with some good people working there. I am optimistic about it and hope for the best.

The RF45 you built sure is looking sweet with the toolchanger hope it is working well for you man. Still not over the whole retrofit thing so who knows which way this will go but if I can find a way to make it run as it came from the factory I will prefer to do it that way.... Peace

Pete

[FannBlade]

I second that....Great News! That will definitely take the pressure off and allow you to get things going with a lighter time frame.
Good Luck with new job.

[samco]

No info on it.. (just found it and it was posted yesterday)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSXR3FsN0EE]Linuxcnc retrofit of a Cincinnati Arrow 500 - YouTube[/ame]

sam

[pete from TN]

I hope the new job will work out and that I can pick it up quick enough for their needs. It does put the VMC in a different time position too altho I STILL would like to get it going soon as possible.

That retrofit is pretty sweet, I love the black look too, kinda like a stealth fighter VMC... SWEET!! I responded looking for information about it and hopefully he will get back to me with it. Would REALLY be nice to be able to chat over the phone with him, will see If he is interested in that at all...Thanks for the link...peace

Pete

[Lomach]

Hi All

The cincinnati in the video is mine and has been a long process to get it where it is now. I bought it as a non runner with a faulty y axis and knowing the control was very old i just ripped most of it out. I have replaced the x and y axis drives and motors with 1kw estun edb and kept the standard 2kw z axis (maxax.) I am using the mesa 5i20, 7i33, 7i37ta combination and considering I had never used linuxcnc before i started it has gone quite well. As you can see in the video I have stripped everything down and had it powder coated although it seems a little darker than planned it certainly stands out. Although everything is working including toolchange, rigid tapping etc I have had no time machining anything on it yet so I will keep you posted and hopefully get some more videos uploaded.

Lee

[pete from TN]

Hey that was quick, thanks SO much for responding here. It appears you have the system sorted and I am very curious as to how difficult you found this and look forward to some more videos of it running and cutting. Were you able to use the factory spindle motor and what kind of drive are you using for it? Curious why you chose to use the Maxax Z motor and not the Y or X, if you can run the Z motor why are you not able to run the X or Y? Are you using the factory drives for the three axes or are you using something different? This is something I am seriously looking into doing at some point possibly sooner rather than later and knowing SOMEONE has already been able to DIY it makes me much less apprehensive about it. Are you using a ladder setup for the toolchange and can still use m6 macros? Any specific information about his setup would me most appreciated. Thanks for sharing. Peace

Pete

P.S. I would love to chat with you over the phone if you are willing...on my dime of course...

[Lomach]

Pete

When i got the machine the y axis was faulty so it made more sense that as i intended to do a full retrofit i would be better off replacing both the drive and the motor. Then i realised there would be a mismatch in resolutions on the x and y which i thought would cause accuracy problems so i decided to replace both servos and drives on x and y. The mesa cards are capable of driving the control techniques drives you already have but i was intent on replacing them only because of the cost of repair if they went wrong. If or when the z axis developes a fault i will replace that too but only if i can afford it. Then after the x y and z where all working under linuxcnc i realised there was a fault on the spindax spindle drive which caused me even more problems. I ended up buying a vfd drive (no motor feedback) and fitted an encoder to the existing spindle motor to give feedback for rigid tapping etc. For the toolchange I struggled with classic ladder and comp programming so ended up using a subprogram for each tool number which although not ideal it works well and its biderectional on the turret. So basically instead of going t1 m6 i would write o<tool1> call to get tool 1. A lot of people wouldnt like that but it works and with the amount of time i have spent on it a solution was needed. Thats probably enough info for one message but i am happy to pass on any information and help that i can.

Lee

[pete from TN]

Hey man thanks so much for sharing all that info. I gotta be honest here I had basically resigned myself to paying the money and having the machines original control repaired since I was apprehensive about trying to do a retrofit. I am very curious as to your servo drives and motors, were you able to find some that were a plug and play fit for the originals and what did you have to do as far as limits and homes, I am hoping it was simply adapting the original parts to the mesa cards and just wiring it up. The spindle is a major concern as If I did try to emulate your retrofit here I would want to basically rid myself of everything emerson except the spindle motor in the electronics dept. What model and brand of VFD did you wind up using and what kind of encoder were you able to use for the spindle control? How difficult was it to remove the resolver stuff from it and install the new encoder? The EMC2 program is usually well regarded and I have honestly not heard anything but good reviews of the mesa cards. I have recently downloaded the burnable disk with the EMC2 software and read a little bit about the setup and whatnot. It seems VERY well capable of running this machine and honestly has a lot of nice features besides the closed loop abilities and true rigid tapping.

Honestly your video and this post has put me in a strange position. I had considered a retrofit of the machine but honestly felt it was going to be a real PIA but now that I see someone else has accomplished it and with a good result it somehow seems a lot more doable. There are many reasons why I had considered doing a retrofit on this machine, mainly cost of replacement parts on the original control, the age of the original control, the ability to replace with brand new components that hopefully will last a lot longer and if they do fail will be much more reasonable to replace, the idea that I can institute a fourth axis very inexpensively, the idea that I can install a touch probe setup inexpensively, the idea that the file size of the programs is basically unlimited, and basically the option to upgrade in the future as software and hardware options become available.... In some ways it is a no brainer but there is a lot to be said for a factory control and whatnot.

When I first considered the retrofit route several kind folks recommended the mesa/emc2 setup and after downloading the software it is obvious how integrated it is in the system with the mesa cards. I can see why they felt that way and why you went this way. Can you elaborate on why you chose these particular boards as the mesa website lists many many different boards. I like the idea of the screw stud equipped TA boards to simplify things, I like simple whenever possible.

I guess my main question is this, If I were to NOT send my Y axis board back to emerson for repair and take that money and invest in three axis motors and drivers of similar to what you used here and buy these mesa cards you used and a decent computer to run this show with the intent to INITALLY only get the three axes working with the spindle and power drawbar and worry about the toolchanger afterwards, what kind of difficulty would I be looking at? I know you put a lot of work into getting this running the way you wanted but since your machine is identical to mine with the same original control could I trouble you to take advantage of your work and somehow get this basic system up and running quickly? Would you even mind helping me with this?

I wonder if you would be so kind as to take some pictures of your control cabinet so I can see kinda what you gutted and how and what needs to be left in there. I see you were able to get the power drawbar and everything working including the flood coolant motor, were you able to just find the right wires and plug them into the IO on the mesa board in general or did you have to build things and adapt things a lot to make this possible? Again some pictures would be LOVELY, even better a video of the system control cabinet would be wonderful. I hate to ask so much of someone I don't know but you are the only person I know who has done this with this machine. I am quite willing to tear out this control and start over since honestly the prices I am getting not only for parts but for professional service is quite staggering to me and I would LOVE to be able to fix it myself in the future is something breaks. Reading thru the emc2 setup guide it seems to be quite comprehensive.

I was just looking at your motors/drivers you used, It seems that the EMG-10a motors might work, the mounting at least appears to be identical to the original motors but I could not figure out the shaft diameter, They are considerably faster max RPM tho but the torque rating is similar, how do you find this in actual RPM on the table, does it seem adequate and probably quite a bit faster than stock I would guess? The driver would be the EDB series apparently, how do you have them setup and wired I am wondering? They look like nice units in the pictures....

What are you using for control signal, step and direction or analog 0-10v? Are you now running entirely single phase or is the spindle motor still three phase? What kind of problems did you have with the spindax getting it to run under emc2? I know it has many wires coming out of it and not entirely sure what does what but I understand you can download the manual on it online, honestly swapping it out for a nice single phase 10hp vfd would be much simpler I think. Did you end up using the spindle mounted sensors for toolchange alignment and how do you accomplish homing with the toolchange height. Again a million questions that I am sure all have simple answers but I am VERY curious about your setup. I would LOVE to speak to you over the phone if possible. Thanks again so much for willing to share your information and kudos for a great build. Peace

Pete

[skray775]

Glad you got a break Pete!!! :cheers::cheers:

[pete from TN]

Thanks man:cheers: I needed one. Hopefully I wont screw it up!! LOLL

Peace

[kudos]

Pete

I ended up buying a vfd drive (no motor feedback) and fitted an encoder to the existing spindle motor to give feedback for rigid tapping etc.

Lee

hi lee

nice retrofit

just wondering what VFD you went with?
as on our retrofit we had to replace the spindle drive, was a Mitsubishi , replaced it with a Invertek plus 3GV, but found it no where as good as the old spindle drive in terms of dynamics and torque, as we cant run it in vector mode above 4000rpm so have to use HZ mode.
and plus spindle orientation gets abit tricky in hz mode too as its all done with the motor,

dont know if you orientation is done with a pin/mechanical or electronically with the motor to position? looks like a pin/mechanical from the video

i am using the Estun on my Laths for servos and realy you cant beat them for value i find.

thanks Rob

[Lomach]

Pete/Rob

The VFD i used was a Control Techniques commander sk2. This was a bargain on ebay brand new so thought it was worth a try. For the spindle index i made a pneumatic plunger going into a vee direct on the spindle. I tried doing it electronically using the encoder index but struggled so just went for the plunger in the end. It still needs a bit of tuning i think as it takes a long time to stop especially when its at 6000rpm (12000 motor rpm) but i am living with that as i am just happy to have it working. As for the estun servo motors they just bolted straight on and i purchased drive couplings from Zapp Automation that went from 19mm ballscrew diameter to 22mm motor shaft. They were taper lock too so didnt need to modify anything. I slowed the new servos to a max 2000rpm to match the existing z axis but that still gives 16000mm minute rapid which i am more than happy with. I chose the mesa cards after reading so much on these forums which i am so grateful for. I run the drives in analogue velocity mode as i wanted the best accuracy and feedback and although the pid tuning caused me many stressful times it was worth it. I think really i should do a comprehensive build log but hope ive covered most of your questions.

Lee

[pete from TN]

Hey man thanks so much for the information. So I am wondering if you are still running three phase on the spindle or is it all single phase now? Glad to hear the motors are plug and play replacements to the originals. Can you possible send a link to the actual couplers you used on the motors as that is something that will surely come in handy here. The spindle index setup is curious as well, can you send a picture of that setup and I am curious as to why the encoder did not work all that well? I would think that a contact on the spindle like that would wear out rather quickly over time but dunno how you did that so not entirely sure. I also was wondering if you had installed a home switch on the tool carousel or if you align it like the original control by setting it for number one position upon alignment? How did you find the limits and home switch setup, are they just screw down into the terminals on the mesa card and configure or did you need to install other circuitry to make them work okay. Also curious as to how you powered the circuit for the power drawbar and toolchanger ram pneumatics with the mesa cards, do you have a dedicated 24 volt power supply on the machine now or did you do something else? I would LOVE to see some pictures of your electronics cabinet to see how you installed everything and what you removed in there. I have been reading up a little bit on the Mesa boards and EMC2 linux cnc as it is now called apparently. They sure look to be a good option and I can see why you chose that route. I removed the table sheetmetal covers today to have a closer look at the motors inside there and figure out which replacement motors would work best for it. It seems like they are a common metric size which is nice. They do have a curious looking coupling setup with what appears to be a crush sleeve and two setscrewed collars going over them to press the sleeve into the shafts keyways or something like that. As far as the spindle motor, if you have the orientation setup with just that plunger thing do you have speed feedback or does it only work for slow speed alignment for the toolchanger? I had a long look at the wiring in the machine today and basically sourced where all the limits, homes, and pneumatic electronics route and it seems quite simple so far. How are you powering the toolchanger motor? So sorry to ask so many damn questions but this is something I am SERIOUSLY interested in going with sooner or later on this machine and honestly sooner is looking more and more a possibility. Do you mind taking some more video of the machine running and maybe shoot some of it inside the electronics enclosure? Where is your computer setup? Is the MPG the original one that came with the machine or an aftermarket model? What buttons did you choose to setup on the panel, thanks again for all of your help and ideas..... Also just out of curiosity, what did you wind up paying for the motors and drivers you replaced if you don't mind saying? Peace

Pete

[kudos]

hi pete

as your machine is very much the same to my leadwell check out here for some build info for my retrofit, some vids too

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linuxc...dwell_cnc.html


here is my spindle orientation with the VFD
took alot of playing around to get it to where it is, drive is in HZ mode have to spin it before i can orientate it (just like old drive did), but it can hold position once there for tool change, but EMC is doing all the work of orientation in a PID loop.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6dGYsXAPIU]EMC2 Spindle orientation with VFD - YouTube[/ame]
check out my vids for more retrofit vids

The VFD i used was a Control Techniques commander sk2.
Lee

very nice find. but i think as you found its still a dumb VFD, i think if we had to do it all again with a VFD we would try and go the Control Techniques Unidrive SP but quite pricy as you might know.
plus we need 200v 3phase in as 200v motor which made getting a VFD more of a pain, are you 400V 3phase on that motor i guess?

I run the drives in analogue velocity mode as i wanted the best accuracy and feedback and although the pid tuning caused me many stressful times it was worth it. I think really i should do a comprehensive build log but hope ive covered most of your questions.
Pete

yea this is allways the fun of any setup i find.. but with Eston i find get that PID loop in the drive spot on and you get very good following error doing the final closing of the loop in EMC,

How did you find the limits and home switch setup, are they just screw down into the terminals on the mesa card and configure or did you need to install other circuitry to make them work okay.
Pete

should be on 24v and mesa cards will take 24v fine so can wire them right in to read them.

How are you powering the toolchanger motor?
for me this was a 3phase motor on the changer.. and goes through some relays for forward/reverse so just a case of addressing the relays.. as i kept all the relays as they where, rewired a few to make it abit more standard but not many,
Pete

[samco]

One thing on lee's machine - the Z axis has to move to change the tool.. Linuxcnc doesn't have a good way to do this. It can be done with fancy hal magic - bit it is hard.

The development branch of linuxcnc does have gcode remapping abillity.

Extending EMC

It still isn't for the faint of heart... I think though you could do exactly what you want. (with a normal M6Txx call... You might want to post on linuxcnc forum and see if you can get some help with the remapping code to do what you want. (and there may be others that have already done it...)

sam

[pete from TN]

Hey man did not know that was you. I have watched all of your videos several times online. In fact it is kinda one of the things that made me think they HEY I can actually own a VMC too and even if it dies I can maybe possibly retro it. I am hoping to see some more indepth pictures and videos of the Cincinatti retro here as it more closely relates to my machine of course. Having said all this I am quite interested in hearing how your spindle orientation and toolchanger control is accomplished. Your thread is very nice but it lacks a ton of information it seems. Do you have encoder input on the spindle or do you have the contactor like apparently Lee has on his?

One of the things that really concerns me about doing the toolchanger on this machine is the idea that if I screw something up in the logic or have a failure somehow and the Z moves at the wrong time it could possibly tear the whole damn tool carousel off the side of the machine. This of course would be really bad.... The M6 macro callout in the code is of course most desired in that I would want to have the machine function exactly as the original machine does originally actually honestly better as in the ability to run faster during three axis movements and also the other improvements with capacity and whatnot. I am quite interested in hearing all you can tell me about this setup and how yours works. I am very seriously considering this for many reasons the least of which involves the cost of replacement parts on this machine and service...peace

Pete

[pete from TN]

Okay guys......I know its been awhile here without much progress. I started a new job here and have been working some long hours. It is bitter sweet really because while I like where I work and I am getting to play with literally brand new fully loaded Haas Machining centers, It makes me realize how much I wanted to be doing this from my own shop. The machines troubles are so damn unfortunate and I feel like I failed somehow ajd now because of that failure I am having to work for someone else. They arw paying me well tho and I am enjoying the experience there so far. Today I ran several hundred parts from D2 steel and we are holding +/-.0005 on all dimensions. That is sure an eye opener because the high quality expensive cutterz wear so fast even using a corn cob rougher beforehand that you only get a couple runs of say 15parts at a time and you see the cutter wear from the first to the fifteenth part in the same run. It makes it where you straddle the tolerance and try to aim for the low side without going too small. Just when you start to get it real nice and tight the cutter wears out and needs replacing and you get to start all over again. It is some tough stuff.....

Honestly I like the job but they are requiring everyone go get 50 hours every week at least and that is great for the pocket book but puts me where I cannot do anything in my own shop to further the progress.

Right now I am investigating retrofit options for the machine and leaning heavily towards the Linuxcnc/mesa cards setup with replacing all three motors and drives completely with new more affordable and serviceable parts. Still trying to decide what is best option here for the machine and am also considering just getting some new drives and use the factory motors on each axis.... Possibly even retrofitting some encoders in place of the resolvers.....dunno yet. Open to any better suggestions. It has also been brought to my attention that DMM now sells servos and drives that may be big enough for my machine gonna check into it here when I get a spare minute......

Anyway Happy Halloween everyone and peace..
Pete

[kudos]

Hi pete

in the USA Eston importer is
Anaheim Automation - Your source for Stepper Motor, Brushless DC Motor, DC Motor, and Planetary Gearbox Products
i am using the Eston EMG motors with there Pronet drive
with mesa setup,

I am quite interested in hearing how your spindle orientation and toolchanger control is accomplished. Your thread is very nice but it lacks a ton of information it seems. Do you have encoder input on the spindle or do you have the contactor like apparently Lee has on his?
Pete

Problem we have here is getting ahold of 2nd hand machines that need abit of TLC 90% get shipped out far East of EU or India etc..

the lack info is due to me having other refits todo and also having to keep things turning over, like id love to make some more vids of VMC and lathes in action but im always busy keeping them fed with metal etc

the spindle has an Encoder mounted off the spindle we fitted. encoder is rated for 10k RPM so no problem there.. and that is what i use for rigid tapping and also for spindle orientation , the PLC does all the work, with a simple PID Loop to control the spindle when orientation is needed. (normal spindle mode is just open loop from linuxcnc)

but its as i said, you realy do need a good vector drive to control the CNC spindles properly. does you drive work? if so i would stick with it and use its orientation function, jump that hurdle if you had too. because a VFD for that size motor is not cheap.


On the changer, yes its abit of a scary Z move at first.. the way i believe old control does it is over ride the soft limits of travel to move above the changer. iv also seen people use the extra Z height in gcode programs to travel long tools over indexers and jigs

doing the Z move on tool chang is going to be your most painful part at the moment in linuxcnc as no one has done it i know of in a tool change cycle properly, saying that it should be doable in the current version, id jump on IRC in linuxcnc chat and have a talk to the guys there