[DonW]

V24 actually WAS a big jump. Much moreso than a "new look". The CAD didnt change much, we got "quick trim", but the CAm had alot of new things added. They actually first brought in Moduleworks there. All the toolpaths were upgraded and had feature additions too. This is an upgrade. (It costs them money to do this.) Like the humor you posted about BobCad including the new 5th axis in a deal for you. You were obviously kidding, but was also kindof insinuating that all this new stuff should be given away because you hadnt loaded V24 yet? Do you know you can call moduleworks? Call them and ask to license their 5th axis routines. When you purchase that agreement, maybe you will give it to BobCad so they can hand it out to us for free? BTW: You cant "buy customers". You have to win them!

Okay, now that you mention it, I did notice that my toolpaths had things like Subprograms in them that they didn't have before. If nothing else, it makes it easier to edit the final move of the machine at the end of the program since that code is now at the top of the file. Mostly, I look for changes in the CAD, since my CAM usage is pretty limited being that I work in wood not metals. I readily admit that I don't use most of the options in the CAM part. Profiling, Pocketing, Slice Planar, Drilling, and the occasional Engraving function are my go-to toolpaths, so much of it is lost on my and perhaps I shouldn't speak from my limited POV.
And no insinuation that they should just give stuff away, it was purely a joke. I realize it's hard to convey personality in text, so that is just to clarify. In general, I LOVE my V24. I have great fun with it, virtually non-stop when I'm home. For all I know, I could have even more fun with V25, but perhaps I'm just not ready to upgrade to it yet.

If you have a problem with a skin, Maybe it's better for you to enter the forum with a file and ask "I try to skin this, and BobCad crashes. Anybody have any input"? Maybe there is an answer. Then you would think, "V24 works really well, I dont need V25 unless I need the time savings of the new stock/toolpath intergration and I would pay for that because it's valuable to me!" You could just use V24. (Unlike your other scenario where you would shovel out some money every year whether you needed it or not).

But I DO think V24 works really well. On occasion, it crashes. So does my accounting software, and it's a lot more expensive than BobCAD. Fortunately I don't have to pay for it out of my pocket. Crashes happen. Systems lock up. I don't like it when it happens, (who does?) and it is an inconvenience, but the positives outweigh the negatives by a ton. When I do a skin surface now, I save right before doing it. If it fails, I don't lose anything. If it works fine, all is wonderful. It doesn't fail every time, only every now and then. I'm not sweating it. It could just as easily be my computer causing the issue...

Again, I apologize to anyone who may think I was piling on the crap, that was not my intention. I am a very satisfied customer, and I know of no other CAD/CAM software that gives you the level of bang for the buck as Bob does.

The accounting software is truely not the same. It doesnt equate.

It does from a business/customer standpoint. You buy it, you get periodic updates like patches, fixes, enhanced features, etc., and you get tech support every year. Whether the software is a CAD package or an Accounting package or something else, you buy, you commit to using it, you continue on in a relationship with the manufacturer of the software, and you both benefit. Similar to going to the BC website and downloading the next build, my accounting software company sends us a disc or a download link to get the period updates several times each year; it's an ongoing process. The difference is the software is always the software and they don't expect their customers to buy an upgrade every year. It is however much more costly than BC in every respect. So I understand why BC has to come out with a new version most years, since that is most likely the primary source of their revenue stream. It's a different industry, and money flows differently in every industry. I get that. It's not an ideal business model, but perhaps they've tried to do things the normal way and found it doesn't generate the funds necessary to support R&D and keep good employees on the payroll. If that's the way they need to approach it, I can understand it from that perspective. They also offer their software at prices that are astoundingly low compared to the rest of the industry to begin with, and it becomes an affordable option for guys like me who don't use it to make earn a living. That's not a bad thing at all.

[DonW]

Thats funny... Your user name is an abomination of any type of grammer or syntax. I would suggest Al not take ANY advice from you.

Please fix this and post an entire, proper paragraph before any further comment or review!

Yeah Burr...Hopefully he got your message there...
I don't like those kinds of personal attacks on folks. I work with a number of folks who speak English as a second language, and it's not so easy for them to get the subtleties of the language as it is pretty different. People need to get off their high horses and understand that language is simply a barrier sometimes, but it doesn't measure the person's humanity nor their raw intelligence. However, rudeness is a measure of character, and we should all be striving to show some respect and understanding of our differences.

[DonW]

We support quite a few softwares from quite a few years back. Here is a list:

V19Wire
V21-V25

We don't just stop supporting a product until is significantly antiquated to the point when it is not being used by a large number of the customer base.

Thanks for jumping in on this Sean.
Just to clarify, and for the record....do you mean that you continue to create new builds where known issues are patched, or just that you support it (tech support) with help should folks encounter issues? And if it is the former, do you continue to add functionality, or just fix things that may not work properly?

Thanks.

[The Engine Guy]

You know after reading the different posts about the flaws or design of this software. I understand that cad and cam software is different in itself. And is quiet costly to produce. Here is a thought to put out there since this is such a different software I wonder why a software company has not done this is to build a completely independent os away from Microsoft OS. Yes this would be starting from scratch but this would give them the control of building a operating system that would give them full control of how it works and remove alot of the crashes that would happen using someone else OS design. Heck windows crashes by itself with out some thing else causing it. Oh yeah I think way outside the box. But those who stay in the box never know what is out there they could have done. Remember program and software is nothing more that one and zeros...... Logic at it's best on or off....

Already exists, it`s called Linux, fully "Open Source" so anyone can make it work the way they want and I`m sure the CadCAM software companies will already have programmers capable of doing it so that their software is 100% compatible.

However, who out here would want to have to install (Who indeed can properly install??) a completely new Operating System specifically to run one software and would it support all the other myriad softwares we all use every day without even thinking about it ? ?

Regards

[DonW]

Already exists, it`s called Linux, fully "Open Source" so anyone can make it work the way they want and I`m sure the CadCAM software companies will already have programmers capable of doing it so that their software is 100% compatible.

However, who out here would want to have to install (Who indeed can properly install??) a completely new Operating System specifically to run one software and would it support all the other myriad softwares we all use every day without even thinking about it ? ?

Regards

That is the trick, isn't it? I know that a few years back Rhino was working on a Mac OS version. I don't know anything about it, but it makes more sense to have all CAD/CAM and machining code done on the same platform. Maybe not. But to a layman's mind (mine anyway) it makes sense. How would I get from there to Mach? IS there some sort of conversion file? Makes my head swim.

BobCAD is why I have XP Pro loaded on my MacBook Pro. I never use the Mac side of the computer, it's all governed by the fact that my "fun" software (V24) is on the WinXP OS side.

[dodger889]

Already exists, it`s called Linux, fully "Open Source" so anyone can make it work the way they want and I`m sure the CadCAM software companies will already have programmers capable of doing it so that their software is 100% compatible.

However, who out here would want to have to install (Who indeed can properly install??) a completely new Operating System specifically to run one software and would it support all the other myriad softwares we all use every day without even thinking about it ? ?

Regards

Installing it would be no harder than the rest of them. If the developers are half way intelligent about how the do it. As far has the using other programs inside of the OS is not need it would be strictly for doing one thing just has you do now with any CAD CAM program you would create a file. Now in storing that file you could have it be in file partition that either OS would be able to see. See this is where Microsoft, Mac, and Linux really need to get together on how they see each other. They are all doing us user injustice. They are afraid to let go of there big hold on what they have. They are claiming that it is intellectual property. But each are using the same intellectual property. The hardware side of all are the same. I could get MAC OS's running on this window base machine. If the MAC OS's did not have code written into to keep it from doing such.

[The Engine Guy]

See this is where Microsoft, Mac, and Linux really need to get together on how they see each other. They are all doing us user injustice. They are afraid to let go of there big hold on what they have. They are claiming that it is intellectual property. But each are using the same intellectual property. The hardware side of all are the same. I could get MAC OS's running on this window base machine. If the MAC OS's did not have code written into to keep it from doing such.

No, there is no such issue with Linux, it is truly "Open Source" and is constantly being developed by literally thousands of users every day, some in their bedrooms some in their basements, it is a truly global endevour, please don`t class it the same as Microsoft and Mac, it is a completely different "animal"

Regards

[dodger889]

No, there is no such issue with Linux, it is truly "Open Source" and is constantly being developed by literally thousands of users every day, some in their bedrooms some in their basements, it is a truly global envdevour, please don`t class it the same as Microsoft and Mac, it is a completely different "animal"

Regards

It isn't they are all ones and zeros . And the latest of the Mac OS's are linux based. Opps did I say that out in public.

[The Engine Guy]

Maybe not. But to a layman's mind (mine anyway) it makes sense. How would I get from there to Mach? IS there some sort of conversion file? Makes my head swim.

Mach3 doesn`t care where the "G" code comes from as long as it is correct for the CNC machine being controlled by the Mach3 software. In fact Mach3 has a number of "Wizards" that can do most simple operations like pockets, drilling, tapping etc without the need for any CadCAM software at all, it will also import a simple 2D .dxf file and create the G code from that again without any CadCAM software.

Linux goes one better in that there is a specific software that will control a CNC mill/lathe/router etc developed just for Linux, it used to be called "emc2" (Enhanced Machine Control) but I believe has recently been renamed to "LinuxCNC", this software some say is better that Mach3 but as I have not used it I can`t comment further

Regards

[The Engine Guy]

It isn't they are all ones and zeros . And the latest of the Mac OS's are linux based. Opps did I say that out in public.

Think you got the wrong meaning there, I didn`t mean they were any different in the respect of "ones" and "zeros" what I meant was that whereas MS and Mac are locked out and can not be modified (Apart from the hackers of course) Linux is as far as I am aware open to anyone to freely modify to suit their needs, very cool

Regards

[BurrMan]

You know after reading the different posts about the flaws or design of this software. I understand that cad and cam software is different in itself. And is quiet costly to produce. Here is a thought to put out there since this is such a different software I wonder why a software company has not done this is to build a completely independent os away from Microsoft OS. Yes this would be starting from scratch but this would give them the control of building a operating system that would give them full control of how it works and remove alot of the crashes that would happen using someone else OS design. Heck windows crashes by itself with out some thing else causing it. Oh yeah I think way outside the box. But those who stay in the box never know what is out there they could have done. Remember program and software is nothing more that one and zeros...... Logic at it's best on or off....

They have. They are called "Fanuc, Haas, siemens etc, etc..."

[BurrMan]

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the way BC works for you. I'd like the opportunity to find a way to make you a happy customer again.

I have sent you a PM to get things started. If that does not reach you, please contact me by phone or email.

I also encourage others reading this thread that are in any way unhappy to do the same.
This will help us to keep our products at the high level of quality we strive for.


Note: aldepoalo did not write this but it should have been along these lines.
__________________
Sven
.

Hi Sven,
If somebody read me that contrived line of bull I would be sure to note I was speaking to an imbecile that didnt care about me or what I have to say.

Did you learn that in a seminar?

By the way,
If you expect to enter any public setting and treat people with utter contempt and disrespect and basic rude, childish behaviour, then you may find yourself regarded as such.

[BurrMan]

And no insinuation that they should just give stuff away, it was purely a joke. I realize it's hard to convey personality in text, so that is just to clarify. .

I hear you. I get that all the time..

It does from a business/customer standpoint. You buy it, you get periodic updates like patches, fixes, enhanced features, etc., and you get tech support every year. Whether the software is a CAD package or an Accounting package or something else, you buy, you commit to using it, you continue on in a relationship with the manufacturer of the software, and you both benefit.

Well, you cant really ignore the difference though. As a customer, you have to realize that CAD/CAM is a totally different animal. On the hardware especially. Dont choose to operate under the false belief that they are even close in nature.

[DonW]

Well, you cant really ignore the difference though. As a customer, you have to realize that CAD/CAM is a totally different animal. On the hardware especially. Dont choose to operate under the false belief that they are even close in nature.

I was speaking purely in terms of Software Company / Customer relationship. It doesn't matter what the software is for, if it has long term use, and the customer needs it and wants it to evolve as does the Software Company, then the same Provider/User relationship exists. Granted that accounting software and CAD/CAM software are completely different animals and have (mostly) completely different markets, but you'd be surprised about some of the things that accounting software have built in as add-ons, like import of .pdf files to attach to assets for asset management, and add-ons for importing time management and expense allocation. There are different modules that can be purchased for varying levels of work, just like a CAD/CAM package has, even though they do completely different things.

All that said, and I think the level of expertise needed to make major changes in CAD/CAM software is at a much higher level than for accounting software. Accounting is pretty basic, and it's more database function oriented than engineering oriented, which gives me a good degree of appreciation for when a company comes up with new and innovative code in a CAD/CAM software.

Does that make any sense?

[dodger889]

They have. They are called "Fanuc, Haas, siemens etc, etc..."

Nope those are equipment driver not CAD CAM. Sorry try again. You need to understand that equipment CNC or NC machines are not what the topic is. The topic is about CAD-CAM programs.

[BurrMan]

I was speaking purely in terms of Software Company / Customer relationship. It doesn't matter what the software is for, if it has long term use, and the customer needs it and wants it to evolve as does the Software Company, then the same Provider/User relationship exists. Granted that accounting software and CAD/CAM software are completely different animals and have (mostly) completely different markets, but you'd be surprised about some of the things that accounting software have built in as add-ons, like import of .pdf files to attach to assets for asset management, and add-ons for importing time management and expense allocation. There are different modules that can be purchased for varying levels of work, just like a CAD/CAM package has, even though they do completely different things.

All that said, and I think the level of expertise needed to make major changes in CAD/CAM software is at a much higher level than for accounting software. Accounting is pretty basic, and it's more database function oriented than engineering oriented, which gives me a good degree of appreciation for when a company comes up with new and innovative code in a CAD/CAM software.

Does that make any sense?

Hi Don,
I know what your saying, but I'm disagreeing on a particular part...

My workstation cost over $10,000. The video card costs more than most of the computers sold today. It is considered an "entry level" workstation. Pretty sure I could load and run your accounting software on the computer I bought for my kids at best buy. Although, BobCad has been pretty good about running on minuscule computer specs, to add some type of power comes at a cost. I wont be loading Solidworks, or nx or catia on my kids computer. Thats not poorly written software or bugs or anything. Also, the "huge cost" of some of those other programs, isnt necessarily "Some company just decided to charge more for their product. You may be supprised at how close the margin is. Those other very expensive softwares have to shell money to "other people" for the licenses they sell.

It's an entire different task for the "computer", moreso than the software.

What your accounting software is updating and fixing and adding on to, is entirley different than what BobCad development is dealing with.

This makes the customer/vendor relationship different in those decisions made. It DOES matter what the software is for. The customer has to realize this.

[BurrMan]

Nope those are equipment driver not CAD CAM. Sorry try again. You need to understand that equipment CNC or NC machines are not what the topic is. The topic is about CAD-CAM programs.

those are machine controllers, and I dont know much about them, but pretty sure people sit at those and do both their Cad and Cam.. I think they have pretty good ones now days that do 3d stuff. But I really dont know much about them.

[SeanDa]

Thanks for jumping in on this Sean.
Just to clarify, and for the record....do you mean that you continue to create new builds where known issues are patched, or just that you support it (tech support) with help should folks encounter issues? And if it is the former, do you continue to add functionality, or just fix things that may not work properly?

Thanks.

We support it. It does not receive build updates however.

[DonW]

Hi Don,
I know what your saying, but I'm disagreeing on a particular part...

My workstation cost over $10,000. The video card costs more than most of the computers sold today. It is considered an "entry level" workstation. Pretty sure I could load and run your accounting software on the computer I bought for my kids at best buy. Although, BobCad has been pretty good about running on minuscule computer specs, to add some type of power comes at a cost. I wont be loading Solidworks, or nx or catia on my kids computer. Thats not poorly written software or bugs or anything. Also, the "huge cost" of some of those other programs, isnt necessarily "Some company just decided to charge more for their product. You may be supprised at how close the margin is. Those other very expensive softwares have to shell money to "other people" for the licenses they sell.

It's an entire different task for the "computer", moreso than the software.

What your accounting software is updating and fixing and adding on to, is entirley different than what BobCad development is dealing with.

This makes the customer/vendor relationship different in those decisions made. It DOES matter what the software is for. The customer has to realize this.

Our accounting software costs significantly more than your workstation.

;-)

:cheers:

But you are correct in some respects. I doubt most CAD software would run well on the cheap laptops we use for the accounting software, even though it's not resident there but on a SQL server. I agree that they are different beasts, but accountants are some of the most anal-retentive individuals I've ever known, and complain tirelessly if anything is funky with the software.

[DonW]

We support it. It does not receive build updates however.

So you only support it in the sense that if someone has an issue, you try to help them find a work-around ? You mean you stop making patches and fixes of known problems or found bugs?

Please elaborate.