[Davey Boy]

I understand DOS, I just wasn't sure if there was something special about ver 6. The good old c:\ days... it's been a while. I was computing before Windows was a thing, but I do still remember some of the basics.

I formatted a stick to some DOS lite commands, but it's still NFG for reading the disk. Maybe I'll try a more robust stick loaded with more files.

[thebodger]

Can you email me the contents of that floppy? Do you want to see if I can do anything from my end? Shoot me a P.M. and I'll give you my Email address, if you want.

[Davey Boy]

I can't access the disk contents, as I get errors both from Windows and from the DOS prompt using the stick method. I tried another floppy disk to be sure it wasn't the drive and both methods showed me the files on that floppy, so it's disk specific.

[Lohmeyer]

The Maho disks were written as DOS format floppies (FAT file system). All DOS and Windows floppies are FAT file system. So, any PC (DOS, Win3.1, Win95, WinXP, etc.) should be able to read them. My Maho has a floppy drive, and I have the original floppy that came from Maho. This is a 1994 machine. I have never had any issues reading floppies from this machine using Windows XP. I have also easily read 3.5 inch floppies from the DOS era on my WinXP machine. Unfortunately, the problem is most likely your disk is bad.

Another consideration is, it could be you haven't yet found a good 3.5 inch floppy drive to read from. Nobody uses them anymore, and after sitting for a while, they collect dust, or start failing.

But, chances are, the problem with your params disk is even worse than that. You may have ruined the disk the first time you tried to read it. Again, because nobody uses 3.5 inch disks anymore, the drives collect dust over time. Often, the first disk someone puts in such a drive is ruined as it smears a spec of dust on the floppy. I have 3.5 inch drives in all my computers still (because I still use them). But, I always put an unimportant disk in the drive first to let it spin and blow away any dust, and then I put the important disk in the drive. I have ruined several 3.5 inch floppies because of not doing this. I haven't yet had to resort to a disk cleaning kit, though.

Sorry, not what you wanted to hear. If you can get a Win95 system (or DOS) installed, go for it and try to read the disk. I may be wrong. But, chances are the disk is just bad. Your only chance to recover the data is probably to find a program that will bypass the bad sectors and try to read the raw data. Being that the first thing a floppy drive tries to read is the directory information, that means the bad sectors are the directory. But, the good news is, the actual parameters file is probably perfectly intact. It's a highly technical thing to do using a disk sector editor to read such data, but it can be done. The difficulty is that the data on the disk may not be contiguous (i.e. the params file is broken up into several chunks, or worse, there are multiple copies and you have to figure out which chucks are the latest version).

But, please, before you do anything more with that floppy disk, make sure you have a clean floppy disk drive. Read, write, and re-read a new disk in the drive first before putting your params disk in the drive. Otherwise, you are likely to just damage the params disk further. I stop short of suggesting you get a 3.5 inch floppy cleaning kit. They are hard to find, but if you can find one, it wouldn't hurt.

Also, make sure the disk doesn't have moisture damage. Slide open the metal cover on the disk and spin the disk. Look for discoloration on the disk (top and bottom side). This could be moisture. If so, the disk _was_ readable, but as soon as you put a disk with moisture damage in a drive, you immediately ruin the disk - and possibly the drive! There are ways to improve your chances to read such a disk, but since you already tried to read the disk, the damage is already done.

BTW, make sure the write protect notch is enabled on your params disk to make absolutely sure no drive writes to the disk. If you write to the disk even once, you could easily ruin the disk due to a poorly aligned floppy drive.

Sorry for the long post, but I do a lot with vintage computers and old floppies. Floppy disk problems are the #1 issue in trying to get old computers to work. The 3.5 floppies are the worst because it is so easy to ruin them with a single spec of dust. The 5 1/4 inch floppies were _way_ more robust.

Regards,
Mike

[Lohmeyer]

Forgot to say... You said already in another post that the paper tape isn't in the electrical cabinet. But, take another look (look everywhere inside the machine). It might be hidden somewhere. I have seen several people over look the box that holds the paper tape. If you find it, I have a paper tape reader and can help you read the tape. Long shot I know.

Regards,
Mike

[Lohmeyer]

(whoops - double post deleted - ignore this)

[Davey Boy]

Thanks Mike for your great information!

I have been able to read, write and format disks with the drive I have, but there is still no joy with the parameter disk. I found an old boot disk for loading Win95, but was still unable to access the data in the DOS evironment.

There is a 3.5" floppy cleaner around here somewhere, but I am beginning to suspect, as you are, that the disk may be toast. It is write protected and I don't see any discoloration, so perhaps a recovery program will salvage the data. As you noted, that's not going to be easy either.

I haven't dug right to the bottom of the cabinet looking for the tape, but the small box that's supposed to hold it is empty. I will have a good look tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help!

[Lohmeyer]

Google "floppy sector editor". Several options there.

If you are lucky, the disk was formatted and written as a brand new disk. If so, the files will be contiguous on the disk (i.e. the disk hex editor will show the data in order, no mixed up chunks). Then you should be able to get the parameters off the disk easily.

The parameter files are standard ASCII files (text files). So you'll know them when you read the disk with a hex editor. The text will be clear as day in the ASCII columns of the hex editor.

The file will probably be named something like <serial number>.cm where <serial number> is the serial number for your machine. For example, mine is named 120094.cm. What you'll see in the file is something like this:

N0 C2
N1 C6
N2 C512
N3 C1024
N4 C1
N5 C1
N7 C1
N10 C5
.
.
.

Where the N number is the parameter number and the C number is the value. E.g. parameter 3 is written as 1024.

Except in the hex editor, it'll be all combined like this (16 bytes per row):

N0 C2*N1 C6*N2 C
512*N3 C1024*N4
C1*N5 C1*N7 C1*N
10 C5.....

Where you'll see the text as expected separated by CR or CR/LF characters which I have indicated above with a *. Also, there will be a lot of other crap breaking up the chucks of the files. This is sector and other disk housekeeping information. A good disk editor will help sort this stuff out.

I am actually pretty optimistic you'll get some good data if not the entire params file - provided you can get a disk hex editor to read the disk at all. You'll still have to sort through all the data and decide what is correct or not, but hey this is WAY better than not having any params at all.

Alternatively, you might consider sending the disk to a data recovery company and let the professionals do it. It will cost $$, but getting the correct constants is so important, it is well worth it. Your only other options are to hope Maho can send you something (iffy at best) or find someone with the exact same machine and use their params. Even then, there'll be a few numbers that need adjusting or aren't totally correct for your exact machine.

BTW, is this an original disk from Maho, or a blank disk that an end user wrote later? If an original disk, then there will be other files with information like measurements on the machine and some production info. I have never had to use this info (yet).

I also ask because over the years, some params may have been changed to compensate for use and wear on the machine, or changing features or parts. So a disk written later by the end user might actually be better.

If you need help using a disk hex editor, don't hesitate to PM me. Let me know which program you choose and I'll load it myself and walk you through it. I can't recommend any one particular program because I haven't used a hex editor in probably 20 years. But they are relatively simple once you understand a few things.

Regards,
Mike

[uli12us]

If you say hex editor, eventually the files can be copied with isobuster. That is a program, that can copy nearly everything, unlock compressed files and so on.
The best thing is, while its shareware, you have not to buy it. If it works, its good, if not, then you have only used your time.

[Davey Boy]

The disk has been written by the end user, so hopefully the data is in a clean format. It seems there are a few options for recovery. I will take a look at both the Google and isobuster. Any others recommended?

Is there a danger to damage the data with these utilities?

Thanks to all!!

[Davey Boy]

After a quick search, it looks like Microsoft's Diskprobe might help with this problem, since the error I get is with the media descriptor. Here is a link...

Floppy Disk is Not Accessible, Not Formatted, or Not Recognized by Windows

What do you guys think?

[uli12us]

With Isobuster there is no danger, the programm only try to copy a file several times and can assemble a file out of different parts. You can run this with different drives and it combines the parts of the drives to a single file. I use it only for descrambling iso files instead of burning it to a DVD or CD.

[Davey Boy]

It looks like Diskprobe can't read the disk either.

[Davey Boy]

I downloaded Isobuster, but it seems to be only for CDs and other optical drives.

[Davey Boy]

WOHOO!!!:banana:

Winhex was able to find a bunch (I think all) of the parameters on the disk, and thanks to Mike the format was clear!

I'm still looking through the contents, but it is looking promising!! More later.

[thebodger]

Davey;
Sounds like there is some optimism in the air! Good advice from Mike, i must say. May just say, if you do get the constants recovered and the machine back up, make a few multiple copys of your constants. The machine battery always dies at the worse time.

[Davey Boy]

Sometimes I think that if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any at all.

The parameters were all there, and the values were quite different from the ones I guessed at, but I did manage to get them input. My last step was to set N80 back to zero, but just as I hit the store button, the house breaker panel tripped (as noted earlier, I only have 100 amps here and that makes for competition between the shop and the laundry, baking, etc.)

Now I can't seem to get the console back from constant editing mode. It seems to start okay, but I still don't have a hydraulic light and when I go to the constants screen, it's still in edit mode, even with N80 at zero. Thebodger do you have a suggestion for this?

Thanks,
Davey Boy.

[thebodger]

Scroll through the constants, make sure you don't have any goofy values in there from the power fail. If all looks good , set C80 to 0. Make sure you press the "store" button. Then press the "manual" button, controll will reboot, and you should be good to go. If not, then post all alarm messages please. Oh and check to see that all breakers in the electro panel are not tripped from the power fail.

[Lohmeyer]

Wow, that is fantastic news that WinHex was able to recover the parameters.

Now the real fun begins. Getting the hydraulics to power up will probably require a lot of various issues to be resolved. It took me two months to get my MH1200C hydraulics to come up. Most of it was my own misunderstanding on how to do it, but it also involved hunting down all the safety interlocks and making sure they weren't the problem (all the door switches, etc.). Do you have the schematic for the machine? That will help a lot.

Main thing is be patient and methodical.

As for your current issue of getting it out of constants edit mode, I can't help there. My machine is a 532 controller and very different vs. yours. But, yes, it may be a switch somewhere in the electrical cabinet.

Regards,
Mike

[Davey Boy]

I went back through the constants and everything seemed to be good, even N80 was zero. My manual talks about pressing "manual" to reboot, but that has never happened yet. It used to send me back to the manual screen, but that didn't seem like much of a reboot. The only error that shows up is the good old i01, which I have had from the get go.

I had a quick look through the cabinet with 1) daylight 2) flashlight and (most important) 3) glasses and found i) the punched tape and ii) the constant switch, which is in pretty plain sight right on the inside of the electrical door. The tape was buried under the wires in the bottom of the cabinet.

Not sure why, but the constants all fit on a single sheet (4 columns) of paper. It would have been a lot simpler to include a copy of them in one of the manuals IMO.

I'm off, with glasses and flashlight, to check for breaker issues.

Thanks guys.