[Temo]

Here some pictures of the coils at the board.

When I power up the machine you can see the leds that turn on on top of the coils, some are 24V DC some 110V AC.

I dont know if the led would indicate that the coil is defective.

First pic is all the coils.

Second pic is machine off, leds are off too.

Third pic is is machine on, and the leds that turn on.

Any way, I was wondering if I can switch coils to see if the machine does something, would it be helpful?

[Temo]

Another question:

The owner bought a new Hard Drive from SIEMENS because one of the guys he previous hired told him that the reason he didn't had image at the screen was a defective Hard Drive... it wasn't.

Would it be a smart idea to switch the hard drive?...

Is there a possibility that the new hard drive would have the ladder logic as a sub-menu?...

Should I explore the hard drive in my laptop and see if I can find it there?...

I'll double check tomorrow on the screen for a sub-menu to see if I can find the ladder logic there...

Last thing, the Acramatic is own by Vickers; I don't know if that helps...

We'll be in touch...

[Al_The_Man]

Those relays are typical of being switched directly by the PLC outputs to control larger elements such as contactors and solenoids etc.
The hard drive failure is typical fault in those systems, the hard drive cannot be cloned by a simple copy, it has to be done by Verbatim copy software such as Acronis etc.
Otherwise you pay an arm and a leg from Siemens!
Both drives SHOULD have any ladder on it.
Al.

[FanFan]

Temo, Nice photo's and I like the way you showed the different states of the leds. It is useful for information.

I know some things about software but I am definitely not an expert. I just know that you want to have all the software that the machine is suppose to have and it is suppose to be at the correct revison level. I was wondering where is the old hard drive? And who loaded the machine software into the new hard drive?

Back to the photo's. The red leds shown are not be showing you faults. They should be telling you that those blocks ( some type of solid state relays) are active (on). As Al said they are used to take small control digital signals from the CNC and are controlling big outside devices such as contactors. solenoids, and such devices ( I am trying to paraphrases what he said). When their red leds are on the corresponding devices should be on).

The question you should be asking is which led should be on to tell you that M 3's coil is on. BTW the M3 coil is physically in the M contactor. As Al mentioned in an earlier post the coil goes to the terminals on the M contactor labeled A3 and A3. One of the wires on A2 and A3 should traced back to those boards that have red leds and solid states relays on them. On the electrical prints the M3 coil will normally be directly connected to the M3 contactor.

If one of those three leds that are on and one of their corresponding wires which goes to the M3 coil terminal A2 or A3 and the HYD M contactor is not picked up then you may have a blown fuse somewhere. Let us know what you find. By any chance are there any electrical prints for the boards with red leds and solid states relays on them. FanFan

[Al_The_Man]

Also just to throw another wrench into the works, the LED can be on for the relay, indicating that output should be on, but the LED is normally on the coil side of the relay, I have seen this where the LED is on, indicating the relay coil is picked up but the relay contacts are shot.
In that case, if the LED is lit but the corresponding device is not picked up, then this is more than likely the problem.
The bottom line is, the ladder needs to be viewed.
FanFan, I believe Temo mentioned they purchased a new loaded HD from Siemens, (the expensive way!).
Al.

[FanFan]

Hello, I google a couple of things. One was " Hawk 150 Arrow" , that one lead me to this CNCZone's site for Cinncinati archives. You might want to go thru some of those posts. The other thing that I googled was from the last posted photo. I googled " communication board 1269621c " and the first hit on that one showed an ebay dealer. He had some parts. One of which is an output board with black solid state relays on them. I wonder if there are any of those in your control. You may not have any of them but then again you may.

Fanfan

PS All those names Vicker, Siemens, Milacron, IMAG International, etc. Who owns who and who? Vickers was always a valve and hydraulics company. and I could swear that Cincinatti was one of the biggest MTB in North america ten years ago. Siemens had always been one of the biggest electronic manufactors in Europe. I guess thing are always changing. Does anyone even remember the Bullard Company?

[Al_The_Man]

Siemens are one of the worlds largest employers,
Cincinnati Milacron was bought by Vickers, which then was bought by Siemens.
I believe Siemens made Cincinnati Acramatic controls also.
I think the Acramatic was the PC NT based version.
IIRC it was a LOT longer than 10yrs that Cincinnati was a MTB?
Al.

[Temo]

I'm a bit confused, maybe overwhelmed...

So far I have been able to trace the problem from mechanical to electronic thanks to you guys; but now that I got this far I got a bit lost, let me ask the following:

The Ladder Logic SHOULD be or MIGHT be inside the Vickers Acramatic program?

If not available, then I have to buy a Ladder Logic program that will work with Vickers Acramatic?

If I have the Ladder Logic; is it more difficult to read than the schematics that I have for the machine?

[Temo]

Browsing through all the windows in the program this is the closest that I got to see a "ladder"...

It was in the Service screen then in Programware as you guys can see in the pictures.

This maybe nothing or maybe I'm in the right path.

Regarding the HD; Al is correct, the Owner bought a new HD from Siemens, $1350 plus shipping... it comes with the program and everything... ready to install.

[FanFan]

Temo, It can be a bit overwhelming but I have to say that I think that you you are doing quite well all things considering. Hang in there.

You know the prints that you have being posting. In the old days they were called by some as electrical ladder prints. They are called that because if you look at them from "a far" they resemble a ladder. Each horizontal line which are identified as an either as a line or a rung ( as in a ladder rung). The two long vertical outside lines on the print are often called the rails or sometimes the power rail. The output and power devices will be on the right side of the rails and the controlling devices will be on the left side of the rails. The power rail represent the supply voltage. That voltage could be 120, 220, 48, 24,12, volts. But it is only one supply voltage. On one page the rail may 120 volts. Only devices ( actual hardware) that have 120 volts wired to them will be shown. On another page the power rail may 24 VDC. And only devices that are powered by 24 VDC will be on that page. The electrical prints are used to show how everything is electrically interconnected. Those print shows an electrician or a tech how things are wired up( sorta) and how things are supposed to work. Please note my explaination is just a simplification and are explained in general terms to give you an idea of an electrical ladder.

Well with Ladder Logic they are sorted the same but they are defintely different. The print out is normally shown as a ladder. There are rails on the print. There are a bunch of " soft" input and output devices connected across the rails. Inputs are on the left side and outputs are on the right side. They are connected logically. Not electrically. This logic processing is done in the brains ( the CNC). They are a little more complicated. Ladder logic is a bit more harder to interpet and sometimes mistakes are made because people look at them as if they are electrical prints.

Clear as mudd? Sorry, I may not be explaining them that well. If you have access to the ladder logic and if you have a means to display them to us then we should be able to help explain to you what should be going on.

As Al has mentioned before the Ladder logic will tell us what the CNC is thinking and what it wants done. It tells the hardware what and when to do it.

Can you tell me where the old hard drive is? Also in your last photo, one of the screen shot suggests that there is some ladder info in your machine. Not sure if all of the info is there or if it is the correct one. But if you paid 1300 dollars for it from Siemens you should hope it is. You probably can call them on it. Asked them how you can tell. You should be able to get them to tell them if the ladder is on there. When they say yes then at that time you should asked them how you can verify it and how can you look at it ( display it). I think they will reveal that to you.

Also in the other photo can you tell us what shows up on the screen when you select Workstation Event Viewer? One more thing, on the Service menu sreen what is on the left side of the screen? In the photo I can only see part of the screen.

Sorry about all the questions. But you are ours eyes and ears. When I look at a machine problem. If it is not a simple fix. I like to "look around." I like to see what is working and what is not working. I like to see what is avaialble to us. I like to play with things. I am looking for clues.

Okay I leave you alone for now. Have a good weekend guys.

FanFan

PS It could be a little bit more than 10 years ago for Cincinnati. In another shop I was working on new Cincinnati Milacrons in the middle to later 1990's. Perhaps 1997 or 1998. They had A/B 8200 AT's on them. We did have Siemens drives those machines.

[Al_The_Man]

If I have the Ladder Logic; is it more difficult to read than the schematics that I have for the machine?

If it has some kind of internal processing then the schematics will only do you so much good, external I/O etc, the sequence of events or Logic will be internal.

I don't remember if you mentioned you have the Maintenance/service manual?
There is one on ebay right now 140820042609.
It mentions Diagnostics in the contents, but not specifically ladder.
It is a long time since I worked on one, I was always changing the PC. P.Supplies.
Al.

[Temo]

Hi all, I'm back.

Regarding Manuals, I have Installation, Service, Programming, Schematics and one other that I dont remember the name.

Now regarding the Ladder Logic, I just can't find a way to access trought the OSA.

I read somewhare that if I have the programm that they sell then I can connect my laptop trought the RS-232.

Is this correct?

I think that I will be able to figure out the Ladder Logic, now I need to find it!!!!...

[FanFan]

Temo, Were you ever able to contact the company that sold you the new hard drive? Do you still have the old hard drive? Software can be a tricky thing to deal with. Are you sure that you new hard drive have all the software and files that you machine is suppose to have? Are they all at the correct revision level? Most of these questions should be able to be answered by the company that sold you the new loaded Hard drive. I am not saying that is the problem but it is something that I would recommend checking.
As far as dealing with the ladder logic. It can be tricky. Often the program's listing can be over hundreds of pages long. Also to search for the elements requires that you know enough of how to manipulate their search engine.
Normally the ladder is viewed on the operator screen on a CNC machine. On a machine with a PLC then often the ladder is viewed thru a PC (with special software) or industrial terminal. On a Allen Bradley 8200AT CNC control different levels of the ladder logic can be view on the screen if special bits are set in the memory. On some Fanuc control there is a special procedure used to access the ladder. I realize that you don't have those controls but I am just trying to let you know that it may not be as easy one would think if the control is not enabled or set up propoerly. Good luck. FanFan

[Al_The_Man]

Temo, The operating system on this control is Windows NT, and Siemens is the only place AFAIK to supply the replacement drives with the Software loaded.
This is why I recommend to owners of these machines to use Acronis or equivalent cloning S.W. to make a back up HD, instead of forking out over $1k to Siemens.
Al.

[FanFan]

Al, Hello. Back up's are usually not thought about until when some or all one's software is lost or corrupted. To figure out what software and at what revision one has can at times be very difficult. Proper documention is perhaps the first step to keeping one out of too much trouble. At this point I am not sure if the Cinncinatti has the correct software. Calling the company (Siemens) might answer some questions. Having the old drive might also answer some questions also. Especially if one is brave enough to reload the old software on to the machine. If the machine act like same then that is a good indication that the software is maybe ok.
I believe that in the very beginning this machine was running at the previous owner's factory. FanFan

[Temo]

Regarding the software,

The current HD is the one that was in the machine, we havent change it, the one the owner bought was directly from Siemens and is a NT version 4.0, with the serial number of the current HD Siemens can tell what version and software was installed in the machine, they load the HD with the proper software.

However, they did mention that some updates are included.

Now, today I called Siemens, I was able to talk to a support tech guy, he offer to send me some info and he was only able to tell me that I can get into the ladder logic thought the Service screen then pressing the Programware tab.

I have browse though and indeed I have been able to see I/O and such but I can't figure them out since they don't appear as a Ladder Logic but like descriptions and such.

I will post some pics tomorrow and hopely with the info that the guy from Siemens will send me and your help can figure stuff out.

We are getting there.

[Temo]

Oh, and the new HD?... well it's sitting inside its box...

It wont hurt anything at this point if I installed and try it?

[Al_The_Man]

I have browse though and indeed I have been able to see I/O and such but I can't figure them out since they don't appear as a Ladder Logic but like descriptions and such.
.

It has been a long time since I worked on one, but typically the logic is written in Boolean Logic, Which are a sequence of mnemonics.
There are other methods out there, but the real advantage is when the STATUS of the I/O is shown, not just the logic listing.

Oh, and the new HD?... well it's sitting inside its box...

It wont hurt anything at this point if I installed and try it?

It is usually as simple as removing one HD and plug in the other and boot up.
Al.

[maver1ck]

I'll start with the hard drive. Unless you have tested the hard drive, I wouldn't assume it is fully loaded and ready to go. The hard drives I buy from Siemens, only come with 2 of the 3 software layers you need (Base and NCX). The third layer (MAI) comes from Cincinnati. Once all 3 layers of software have been installed, the parameters still have to be set up for the specific machine it is being installed in, and it will need to have the options content enabled for your machine before it will function properly.

Now back to the root of your problem. If I remember correctly from early in your post, it sounds like you are troubleshooting a problem that only started once you plugged a cable in. Is it possible the cable was not supposed to be plugged in and you are chasing an issue that you created? Since you didn't explain what this cable was (or was used for), I don't know if this is the case, but Cincinnati prepped the wiring on their machines for a lot of options so they could be added in the field. If you plugged in a cable that shouldn't be in use, you could be creating a fault that otherwise wouldn't exist.

And just to set the record straight (sorry Al, your info was a little off), Cincinnati is still an active machine tool builder, just not in this small machine segment anymore. The Machine Tool division sold to Unova in the late 90's, and is currently owned by MAG. Also in the late 90's, Cincinnati sold the control division, Cincinnati ESD to Vickers. Vickers kept the ESD designation, so it was known as Vickers ESD. Eaton Corporation purchased Vickers, but decided to sell ESD, so ultimately Siemens only purchased what was Cincinnati's ESD division. And for the record, MAG also owns and supports several other current and former machine tool builders including: Giddings & Lewis, Lamb, Ex-Cell-O, Fadal, Cross Huller, Hessapp, Turmatic Systems, Inc., Huller Hille, and others.

[Temo]

Regarding the HD: indeed I forgot about the MAI... I will leave the HD issue alone untill we get the machine working.

Going to the cable Maverick1, well indeed the cable was there to use in case of a Analog screen; I dont have a clue why it was plugged instead of the digital; looking into the schematics is how I found out that the wrong cable was plugged in.

Back to the ladder logic issue, the tech guy at Siemens sent me information regarding how to access to the Ladder Logic, basically is a description of what each display and option does; to what Al said, the picture attached shows the I/O State and mnemonic logic... that is what I need right?...

Moving in the right direction?

Am I correct to assume that I can manipulate each control from this screen?