[Temo]

Hi all,

After going crazy with and no image at the Touchscreen we finally solve that problem, now I can see whats wrong with the machine.

I have an alarm that says "Hydraulic Motor Overload" and after reading the service manual I could not find a procedure to troubleshoot this problem.

Now it says that the one cause might be the circiut braker for the motor is not adjusted properly, the first question that I have is if anybody know a tip to figure which one is it.

Thanks in advance.

[Al_The_Man]

In many cases the O/L is on the bottom of the Hyd. contactor, the O/L has signal contacts, usually one N.O. and N.C. which are used to signal the controller it has tripped.
If this is the case, there is a reset button on the O/L than can be used to remove the trip condition.
Al.

[Temo]

Hi,

Well finally I had a chance to take a look at the breaker, I found it and it does look like its tripped.

After working with it for a while I just can find the way to reset it, does any body knows how I should do this?

Thanks in advance,

Temo.

[maver1ck]

I don't have prints for your machine in front of me, but OL1 (pictured) is ordinarily used for the Drive Power Supply on Cincinnati's, not the Hydraulic system.

The hydraulic system should have a conventional circuit breaker with O/L mounted to it (as Al mentioned). If you have prints for the machine, you can easily determine what breaker number is causing the problem.

[Temo]

I have prints but not the one that shows the breakers, however, I have the schematics and now I have determined the breaker that is tripped.

Will find out tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the help.

[Al_The_Man]

Normally that type just resets by pushing the (green) trip button in?
Al.

[Temo]

It does Al, but at this point this problem has a twist.

After following the schematics for this machine I found out that a cable that goes to the PCA was not plugged in, instead there's this othe cable that it fits in the place but seem to be for an upgrade o something like that.
Anyway, I plugged the cable and the alarm is gone, however, now there's another alarm: Machine Hydraulic Pressure Switch.

It says that 2 conditions can cause the problem:
1.- an attemp was made to start the machine hydraulics and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch is present before hydraulics are turned on.
2.- Machine hydraulics were started and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch was not received.

Am I correct to assume that if all wires are properly connected that the Switch it self migh be bad? If so, is there a way to test the switch itself?

Thanks again.

[Al_The_Man]

A hydraulic pressure switch is usually a simple contact closure and is probably N.O. with no hydraulics and close under pressure.
A simple continuity test would do it.
Al.

[Temo]

There's no continuity at the switch.

If its N.O. It means is ok?

[Al_The_Man]

An overload can have either or both N.O. on fault or N.C. on fault.
It normally shows on the side of the O/L.
Al.

[FanFan]

Hi Al, Doesn't sound like that is this point Temo's machine is looking for the hydraulics to started? He goes to start the hydaulics and it probably tries to start but does not make his N.O. open hyd. presuure switch. The hyd OL may be tripped but by Temo manual's description is doesn't seem likely. It would be nice to know if this machine has been down for a long while ( does it have any hyd. fluid in the tank), and if it has been moved recently possible 3 phrase issue) and/ or if this machine has had mutiple issues/problems. Hope you don't mind me throwing my two cents in. FanFan

[Al_The_Man]

Feel free, other eyes on the issue always help.
A post of the schematic would be a help!
Al.

[Temo]

Regarding the schematics I'll try to get the pdf's from my boss tomorrow.

The machine has been down for at least 6 months; the boss got it in working condition from Texas but he didn't actually saw it.

Story goes that once the machine was turned on the first problem was no image at the OSA, after some trobleshooting we found out that the video card was bad that's the only thing we have change so far.

So the machine has been down for a while, the tank has hydraulic fluid, and yes, when I want to start the machine, after the screen set up, it doesn't start at all.

Fanfan you give me hope that this is something that has been discussed.

[FanFan]

Temo, When you go to start the machine ( try to take it out of an estop condition) can you hear anything? Such as any motors/ pumps trying to turn or any relays/contactors trying to pull in. Is that when the fault appears? Having prints can help a lot. Many years ago Cincinnati machines did have blue books that helped find machine problems. Can you tell us what model machine you have and what kinda of control it has on it?

Not sure what kind of experience you have, No matter what kind it is it will pay to be very careful. FanFan

[Temo]

The machine is a Cincinnati Millacron, Hawk 150 with Acramatic 2100 control.

At this point I power up the machine at the back, turn the machine on, the program loads and then I press the ON button again, then the alarm shows up, I don't hear any noise regarding motor, relays, or any other; well all the fans are on.

What have me thinking right now is that one of the possible causes is that the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch is present BEFORE the Hydraulics are turn on.

I check for the wire and all are conected.

Regarding prints, the machine came with manuals, one of them has some blueprints but no troubleshooting guide for stuff like this.

We got the Schematics from Siemens directly.

Regarding experience; I'm not a repair technician, just a machinist that knows CNC and programming but eager to learn new things.

[FanFan]

Hello. Temo, were you able to find some electric prints for your machine? I had worked with some Cinncinati Milacron lathes, chuckers and CDL"s about 12-15 years ago. But they had A/B controls on them, not Acramatic 2100's. So I am not sure about the exact prodceure of how to run the control. But then again they are just machine controls. I am curious to know if the machine program is running. Can you change the screens? IE; do you have DTG , Cmd, Tool offset, Program handling pages? Any chance do you have any maintenace or help pages or I/O pages? Does you blue book give you specific instruction of how to start the Hydrau;ics? Do you have to press a set of buttons in a certain sequence? Perhaps a master reset and the HYD on buttons at the same time?
Sorry about all the questions but just trying to understand what your machine is doing. Do you have any other Cinncinnati's in your shop?

It seems like you should hear something when you try to start the Hyd. up unless you are in a really noisy shop and/or if the relays / contactors and motor are in the back of the machine which they probably are.

You mentioned : "Anyway, I plugged the cable and the alarm is gone, however, now there's another alarm: Machine Hydraulic Pressure Switch.

It says that 2 conditions can cause the problem:
1.- an attemp was made to start the machine hydraulics and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch is present before hydraulics are turned on.
2.- Machine hydraulics were started and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch was not received."
You have to make sure which cable really should be plugged in. Knowing which cable is supposed to be used should help you track down your problem.

What ever happen to that OL that you mentioned in your earlier posts? Did you try to reset it like Al suggested? Were you able measure if the OL contacts were either or closed? They should be closed. Please remember if you are checking those various contacts you are much safer doing that with the power off. Again sorry about all the question but just trying to get some clues. FanFan

[Temo]

The long story short: when the machine got here the owner installed and when they turned on, no image at the screen, nothing, so there was problem one.

Owner hire a guy that is a good CNC technician, but he was not familiar with Cincinnati-Millacron, so he suggested that the Hard Disk was bad: $1300 dlls later, ups, it wasn't.

He called a company that does the maintenance to the Cincinnati's now, very expensive, the guy shows up, not as professional as you would think, suggested that the motherboard was bad: $800 dlls to send it to Siemens to repair, ups again.

Owner was very dissapointed and even was thinking about selling the machine "as is".

By now I was working with him, and on my spare time I was going trough manual's, google, and asking here an there, with the help of a friend computer saavy we determined that the Video Card was at fault: $750 dlls later, we have image at the screen, problem 1: FIXED.

So now we can see the alarm in the screen, first alarm was the overload, it happend that it wasn't, one of the persons that look into the machine screw up and plugged the wrong wire in the slot, I switched the wire and the Overload alarm is gone.

Now, after the program loads up, I can see most of the pages that you mention, but regarding service screen or maintenance, theres no info, and theres the "Help" screen... EMPTY!!!!... weird.

Anyway, after the program loads, I press the ON buttom again to start the machine and then I get in the screen the alarm that reads Hydraulic Pressure Switch with the conditions that you wrote.

In closing: the Overload Breaker is good; now I can't start the Hydraulic motor due to this pressure switch alarm.

This is the only CNC on this shop, the blue books don't ask for a procedure to start the hydraulics, pretty much, "turn on the machine".

Of course, unless we have missing another Manual, witch at this point, I would not be surprised.

I'm curious about what you mention regarding the machine been down for a long period of time.

Does anybody now a way to bypass the pressure switch at least to know if the motor and hydraulic pump start?...

At this point, a ritual will be good too...

Thanks.

[FanFan]

Hi. I aked if the machine was down for a long in part to see if it was in storage or if had been shipped from somewhere and the HYD fluid tank was empty, drained or low. If you don't have fluid then the hyd.'s will never come up.

Thank you for the info. Sound like the acramatic is a Siemen cnc control. It also sound as if at least part of the software is working. As you changed the wires you got a response out of the control. To me that suggests that the control ( the brain) is doing some thinking. Also, that you can change the screens say that the control is at least in part is working. Hopefully the correct and complete software is loaded in the control.

Can you find the Hyd. Motor, the pressure switch, and a lube pump, and by any chance are there any filter cartridges (with switchs mounted to them)? In the electrical panel are the contactors(relays ) labeled. Labeled as 1 M, 2M , 3M, etc or hyd motor, lube pump, or coolant pump. If they are labled then it helps you identified things. OR often the different motors, switches and devices will have labels near by identifying what they are. Some machines may have a diagram in the blue books or a chart on the machine identify various machine parts.

If you can identify the HYd pressure switch you may be able to manually force it close. When you force it to with the power off and a multimeter across the switches' wire it should change state ( goes from being open to being closes or vis ver sa.... it will go from being closed to being opened). It should read open in one state and closed in the other state( measured across the switches two wires.? Did you play with that switch before?

Another way to tell if the switches is by checking the I/O (inputs/output) page if it is available. Or sometimes there are input / output indicator boards that feed the computer. I don't know if you have this options on your machine.

It is a little strange that you don't hear the machine make any noises when you try to start the machine. I hope this info gives you some clues. FanFan

[Temo]

I haven done the test you mention, however, today a friend stop by and he mention something that I have not ask here: whats the voltage of the Pressure Switch?... since I didn't know and schematics were not on hand, I got my Voltmeter and we didnt had any read, he told me that I was supposed to get power to that switch once the machine is ON, is this correct?

Just to be safe I check all the fuses and theres continuity an all of them.

Also I notice this, check the attached picture, the Contactor shown with the M3 when I power up the machine the blue part goes inside, the panel has 5 Contactors and the other 4 stay the same... you can see what part I'm talking about if you compare it to the one with the M6 label.

Maybe this will be the problem...

Will look into the schematics later tonight.

Any imput is welcome.

[FanFan]

Temo, I like your photo and the info that you supplied. It is interesting that you talk about M3. That blue tab that is being pulled in, is being told by something to pull in, pick up or one can says energerized or one can say that it is being turned on. The other contactors are not picking up . They may not being told to be pick up or they are being inhibited to pick up.

To answer your question about what voltage you should be seeing. It is probably either 24 volts or 120 volts. It may be there but you may not see it. It will depend how you are taking your voltage reading. If you read across the pressure switch and the switch is closed you will see zero volts. If you read across the meter and the switch is opened you will see either 24 volts or 120 volts depending what supply voltage is being fed to that switch. I don't usually take voltage reading using that method. I am not sure how you do it. Checking all the fuses wasn't a bad idea but probably on a CNC control, the supply voltages are probably being feed from an I/O board on the CNC. I did have the question whether the switch was being feed a voltage, especially when you said that you didn't hear anything when you tried to start the HYd's.

Do you know what M3 is supplying voltage to? I am guessing that you did not find any labels of which motors was which. Do you know when M3 is picking up?

Let me explain how I would look at the hyd circuit. It might work something like these. After the control (the brains) comes up. The control looks at what the machine status is. It waits for you to start the HYD by you pressing one or more buttons. The control see you pressing the correct buttons. It think about it. If all the conditions are met it tell the correct M contactor to pick up. The contactor sends 3 phase voltage to go out to the HYD motor. The motor turns the HYD pump. The Hyd pressure builds up. The control look for the HYD Pressure switch to change state ( signaling that the running HYD pressure has been met). When it sees that change of states the control says :" Okay things are good". The HYD M contactor stays picked up. You shouldn't get any faults. The machine is happy. The hyd's should stay running. The control is constantly looking at what is going on. It is the boss and is in charge. During this whole proceses it is checking the status of the HYD pressure switch. It is also checking if the M Contactor's overload for the HYD's has not been tripped. This the simplified version. There may be other things that the control is constantly thinking about . I am not that good at explaining the whole process but I hope you get the general idea.

If you can please post photos of the motor and pressure switch and perhaps the siemens CNC electronic control. If you know which one the HYD motor is, try and trace where the wires from the motor go to. It should be one of the M contactors. Also try and trace where the wires from the HYD pressure switch go to. That might be a little tricky. You might be able to find the wires number at the switch and see where they appear in the control cabinet.

All of those contactors are controlling something. My guess they are controlling the Hydraulics, probably a coolant pump, a blower motor for the spindle, a chip conveyor, and maybe a lube pump and perhaps one or two other devices. Those contactor are being controlled by the brain It is good to realize that the push buttons are not directly controlling those contactors. They are not hooked up directly to them. Instead the switches tells the control. The control thinks about it. If it is satisfied then it controls those devices thru sometype of output device. Sorry if I wrote too long of a post. I hope some of the info helps you. FanFan