[Steve Seebold]

Jeez Guys, talk about beatin' a dead horse!!!!!!!!

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Patents are now weapons - both offensive and defensive - hoarded by large corporations to be used when needed. They are the new "currency" of technical "innovation". A perfect example is Google's recent purchase of a large block of Motorola patents. Most are likely useless, no doubt many are even invalid, but they can still be used to threaten competitors, and to file counter-claims when they are sued by competitors. The little guy does not stand a chance competing against large corporations, with their very deep pockets (now deeper than they've EVER been in the history of the world), and their armies of in-house lawyers, who can make any litigation ruinously expensive for the targets of their litigation.

The Apple/Samsung verdict was an abomination....

Regards,
Ray L.

[MichaelHenry]

Jeez Guys, talk about beatin' a dead horse!!!!!!!!

The only thing the typical home shop machinist likes better than saving a nickel is discussing the subject endlessly.

Mike

[SCzEngrgGroup]

FWIW - I ordered two sets of these collet chucks when this thread started, and just got my first chance to actually USE them yesterday. I am MORE than happy! They work perfectly, and appear to be every bit as good as the Tormach's. In fact, it actually appears to me I'm getting just slightly better surface finish with 1/2" endmills on 6061 than I got with TTS set-screw holders I'd been using. The one REALLY important lesson I learned is to be sure to clean the shipping oil off the inside of the collet, and tighten the bejeesus out of the collet nut! I forgot to do this on the 1/2" EM, and on the first cut, only 1/4" deep, the EM pulled out of the chuck about 0.150". Fortunately, no real harm done.

Regards,
Ray L.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

FWIW - I ordered two sets of these collet chucks when this thread started, and just got my first chance to actually USE them yesterday. I am MORE than happy! They work perfectly, and appear to be every bit as good as the Tormach's. In fact, it actually appears to me I'm getting just slightly better surface finish with 1/2" endmills on 6061 than I got with TTS set-screw holders I'd been using. The one REALLY important lesson I learned is to be sure to clean the shipping oil off the inside of the collet, and tighten the bejeesus out of the collet nut! I forgot to do this on the 1/2" EM, and on the first cut, only 1/4" deep, the EM pulled out of the chuck about 0.150". Fortunately, no real harm done.

Regards,
Ray L.

[BobWarfield]

ER's should give better finish than set screw holders for a variety of reasons. I've quit using set screws for cutters 1/2" or smaller.

There's some quantification on that as well as on just how tight a "bejeesus" is here:

Getting the Best Performance from ER Collet Chucks « CNCCookbook CNC Blog CNCCookbook CNC Blog

Tightening collet chucks got me scrambling for a good tightening fixture. I wonder if one would be useful for TTS users? Not hard to throw one together really.

BTW, I tried some cheap BT30 holders from eBay--not a happy story. Checked the runout on them and it was way too much. The 4 holders ranged from 0.0007" to 0.0022"(!). The latter, completely unusuable. The former, about 3x what I got from a "name brand" Techniks BT30 collet chuck. Someone should check and publish the runout on these TTS holders.

When I get the Tormach BT30 spindle cartridge mounted, I'll take the cheap holders and make a skim cut of a few thou on the ER taper just to see if that'll clean up the runout. If it does, the cheap holders will have been worth it.

It might be possible to do something similar with these TTS holders, and even easier. You could use a technique similar to the way I got my 5C collet chuck on the lathe mounted and true. Just chuck up a test bar in the ER collet, spin that, and take a very light (few thou) cut on the shank to make it concentric. With a cylindrical shank, you don't have to sweat following a taper.

Cheers,

BW

[zephyr9900]

I emailed Chen with a question last week, and he replied that next month he will have an ER16A version of the chuck available.

Randy

[macpod]

I recently purchased some tooling from Canada based Darkon Industries (http://www.darkonindustries.com/)

So to make this quick:
-It works fine with my Tormach R8 ATC *collet*. I don't have an ATC setup... yet, but I do have the atc r8 collet and these slip in and drop out fine... especially with the tapered tip. A downside to them is they do not have the ATC groove. I'll bet if they got enough requests, they would make a chuck with this feature...

- For less than the cost of a tormach er20 chuck, you get both the chuck and a collet.

-The seller is responsive and speaks English, is knowledgeable of the tooling, and gave me a choice of about 20 different lube/protection oils they would spray on the chucks before sending them out in the mail... a nice change from that thick Chinese shipping gunk.

-Claimed tolerances are real.

-The chuck is supposed to be low profile which is nice for smaller machines like mine since I get just a tad more z-travel. Since it's closer to the spindle, I imagine spindle tolerances won't be "amplified" at the bit as much too.. but that's probably negligible when compared to other tts tooling setups.

-Products have a warranty

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Here is one solution to these things not being ATC-friendly....

32432 - TTS Tool Conversion Kit

Regards,
Ray L.

[WOTDesigns]

Saw that email a few minutes ago and chuckled at:
"install with an arbor press (not included)"

I like this solution as an option, but it obviously takes up more shank. I had a tts adapter come unglued from a fly cutter this weekend, but the shank on the fly cutter mikes at 0.7439" so even this wouldn't help that little poorly made bugger. Time for more epoxie

[Steve Seebold]

Here is one solution to these things not being ATC-friendly....

32432 - TTS Tool Conversion Kit

Regards,
Ray L.

I saw those earlier today. I LIKE them. The only part I would disagree with is trying to press them on the fool with a .002 press fit.

I made something similar for my 3/4 inch tools and I used a .002 press fit. Instead of using a press fit though, I heat mine to 500 degrees. At 500 degrees, the ring will grow .004 to .005. then you clamp your tool in a V-Block, where you want the ring to be, then you drop the hot ring on the tool and you can either let it air cool or you can quench it.

I'd be affraid to try to press the ring on the tool. If for some reason you don't have the ring exactly square with the tool, you'll shear the ring and then it won't line up properly on the face of the spindle.

[Don Clement]

I used a different approach when rolling my own TTS conversion, using a circlip and anaerobic Loctite with a slip fit instead of a press fit.

Don

[zephyr9900]

Instead of using a press fit though, I heat mine to 500 degrees.

I'd be hesitant to heat an anodized part to 500 degrees, Steve. But I suppose any fracturing of the anodize layer probably isn't a big issue in the Tormach's environment. .002" interference of an aluminum ring on a steel shank doesn't seem too out of line at a .750" basic diameter to me though.

Randy

[Don Clement]

I'd be hesitant to heat an anodized part to 500 degrees, Steve. But I suppose any fracturing of the anodize layer probably isn't a big issue in the Tormach's environment.
Randy

Don't know about fracturing but I can say from experience that exposing black anodized aluminum to 500*F does destroy the black dye. Why does one need 500* anyhow? All one needs is a ~200*F with aluminum to achieve the needed 0.002” expansion and then cooling the 0.75” diameter steel shaft will provide even more differential size between shaft and collar. Also from experience anaerobic (red) Loctite 271 can provide up to a 0.010” layer for a slip fit so no heating or cooling is needed.

Don

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Here is one solution to these things not being ATC-friendly....

32432 - TTS Tool Conversion Kit

Regards,
Ray L.

I looked at the Chinese chucks compared to a TTS ATC holder, and it appears to me there may be enough "meat" there to machine in the ATC groove. Worst case, you can machine 95% of the groove into the existing metal, then press a "washer" onto the under-side of the "collar" to provide the last tiny little bottom-most part of the groove.

Regards,
Ray L.

[zephyr9900]

I can say from experience that exposing black anodized aluminum to 500*F does destroy the black dye.

I'm assuming that is the regular aniline black, Don? Do you have any experience with electrolytic black (AnoBlack EC, etc.)? I know that electrolytic black is more resistant to UV but have no experience with it above 100C or so...

Randy

[Don Clement]

Randy,

I don’t know the specifics of the black dye used because all of my anodizing work is done by a professional coating shop to MIL-A-8625F Type II specifiactions. I know from the five years I have been having this particular shop do my anodizing that the black dye they use is quite durable and fade resistant. Also I run my parts in a vibratory deburring machine with medium grade abrasive that gives a flat non-reflective finish. In addition the anodizing shop uses a chemical etch before anodizing for optical applications for even more of a flat black finish.

Don

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I think it's very poor practice to install anything on a Tormach controller beyond what is provided by Tormach. Anything that can cause a timing interruption of even a few micro seconds can cause rough performance even to the point of loss of position. Tormach has issued a white paper on the subject Engineering Documents - Tormach Machine Controller | Tormach LLC | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items It's is unfortunate that the Tormach controller looks like a general purpose Windows computer when it is really a dedicated cnc controller that shouldn't run anything but controller software

I hate to tell you, but the Tormach "controller" is nothing more than a regular PC, running Mach3. And .NET is already installed on ANY PC that's been kept even barely up to date over the last 5 years or so. Adding .NET 4.0 should have no impact whatsoever on performance.

That said, the single biggest problem with Mach3 is that display activity can screw up step pulse timing, which means you really should not do ANYTHING that causes display updates while the machine is actually moving. This means no opening and closing windows, starting apps, even screen savers should be avoided like the plague.

I switched from Mach3 to to KFlop back in January, and it has been wonderful! I can do whatever I want, even while the machine is running, and it has never once hiccuped. I can be doing CAD, CAM, surfing the web, whatever I want, and it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in how the machine runs. It has never, never, EVER done anything weird or unexpected. This is in sharp contrast to Mach3 which was forever doing weird, unpredictable things - including uncommanded moves, turning the spindle and coolant on and off spontaneously (great fun when the spindle comes on in the middle of a tool change!).

Regards,
Ray L.

[morb1lee]

I think im going to order a batch and see how it goes. Worst case I'll set them up for dedicated gang tooling for vertical lathe operations

[skray775]

Ordered a batch on 12/2 and they arrived in MD today, 12/6!!! They look and fit great. I will check the run-out tomorrow.