[manike]

Some pics and thoughts on setting up the 5 axis trunnion on a VF2.

The machine and trunnion are used but new to me.

I wanted a solution that would allow me to easily remove and replace the trunnion without too much set up hassle. It's certainly a fair bit of work to get it set up each time otherwise.

So I decided to create fixture plates with keyways and dowels so it would be simpler to put it on and off in the same location.

I started out with two blanchard ground plates 10"X10". The original material was 1" thick and they ended up 0.97" They are both ground at the same time to be matching.



They were a little over 10" and not very square so I squared them up and didn't worry about them being oversize (I made all critical dimensions from opposite corners so the extra material just gives more support).

Each plate has slots cut in the back for Kurt vise keyways. Same keyways I have in my vises and two per plate. They locate beautifully. Then they have a set of bolt down holes on the same centre line as the original trunnion and a set at the front. There are then two 1/2-13 tapped holes for bolting the trunnion to the plate.



I implemented a reamed hole between the bolt pattern in each plate and when on the bed these are set to exactly 26" to get the spacing correct. I used the machine to do this, and when they are set correctly each plate lines up almost perfectly with the ends of the bed.

It looks like this at that point.



Next, in line with the location holes I came over and put a hole through the plates and into the bed 0.65" for a location dowel.





I put a dowel location in both plates even though I will only need one just in case one ever gets screwed up or for some reason I haven't though of yet.



I used 2" dowel lengths so I can get them out easily and installed them with never seize.

Next I put the trunnion onto the machine. What a PITA that is.



I used a big red engine hoist to do it.

I had to remove the side cover from the machine and relocate the auger power cord. The eye hook pattern lines up just enough so that I am about 8 inches short getting the trunnion into place from the side when the legs of the hoist hit the casting under the machine. So I moved over and counter balanced the trunnion and just used the two side eye hooks. That left me about 4 inches short... but a swing and a helping hand from a buddy and we got it on.

My plan is to cut the legs of the engine hoist back 6-8 inches and I should be fine to put it straight in and on.

Next was setting up the trunnion. A bit of time was spent and in part I followed the great instructions here from user "makingchips" http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_m...vf_4_ss_w.html

I actually aligned the trunnion with the x axis first and the plate at approx 90 degrees, I got it to within 0.0002. Then I set the plate to horizontal using a level to get close and then an indicator to get it within 0.0005.

Next I brought the platter back to 90 degrees and edge found it. Then brought the platter to -90 degrees and edge found it again. Dividing that number by 2 gives me the centre of rotation distance from the platter face to the A axis rotation. It also allowed me to step over and set my Y0 (I double checked to confirm this in a later operation also).

I am setting my XYZ0 to align with the A and B axis. So a rotation about A will be around the X axis and a rotation about B will be around the Z axis.

Next I found the center of the hole in the platter. This showed me that my Y value was dead on, and gave me my X axis value.

Finally time to set the B0.

I had previously made the start of a base plate system for the B rotation



I made it 0.01 overside with a chamfer at what is now the bottom face, but otherwise cut completely square.

I bolted it to the platter and then adjusted it until the sides ran square to give me my B0 value. All of my fixtures and small vice will in some way bolt to this base system.

My plan is to cut the top of this down, interpolate the dowel hole locations and ream them. Also cut the sides to be a perfect 5" square.

Lots of work and set up but I hope it will pay off in the long run.

The one thing that seemed strange is that the distance from the platter face to the centre of the A rotation was 0.126". Does that sound reasonable? Does anyone else have one of these set up? I wonder if it should have been 0.125" but that's just the way it turned out? I wasn't expected it to be 1/8 of an inch in my head for some reason.

Further more I am setting all of my tools from the base plate so that I don't have to change anything if I use my vices or the trunnion.

It was a close fit but I measured from the base plate to the trunnion platter. Adding in the 0.126" gives me my Z0 value.

Since it isn't easy getting to the base anymore, and once I have fixtures mounted on the platter I can't get to that, to measure tools I plan to cut a big chunk of aluminium and bolt it down to the base/trunnion adapter plate on the left hand side of the machine. Cut it to exactly 10" set my 4" tool setter on top of it when needed, and then just -14" from my tool heights when I set them. I will post pics as I get that done too.

I guess I was just looking to share what I have done, and I will happily make CAD files of the fixture plates available if anyone wants to do the same, and to ask if it makes sense to everyone or if I am missing anything?

[WallyL7]

Very nice write up!

Now let's see some parts being cut.

[extanker59]

Very cool. Nice explanation too. I hope, at some point, to get into 5 axis work. Only doing full 4th axis work so far. Your explanation of the y axis zero was the best one I've seen. Thanks.

[Geof]

My plan is to cut the legs of the engine hoist back 6-8 inches and I should be fine to put it straight in and on.

Be careful with this plan.

If you cut the legs of the hoist back the center of gravity of the trunnion will probably be positioned ahead of the ends. This creates a possible tipping hazard. It could be okay depending on how heavy the hoist is and how much weight there is toward the back of the hoist to act as a counterbalance.

An alternative approach is to lift the machine high enough so the hoist can fit underneath the casting and you can keep the base of the hoist full length.

[manike]

Geof,

Yeah, I was looking at that and trying to work out just the right point. Unfortunately I can't raise the machine as I am already damn close on my height when the Z axis homes.

This is me getting the machine into my workshop/barn...



And when it the Z axis is up she just touches the insulation...



I am going to shorten the legs and keep the chain attachment point behind the front castors. I was then going to add more adjustment holes to the top boom so I can fine tune it in shorter increments and get it so that's it's the perfect lengths to drop and lift the trunnion with the front of the engine hoist against the casting.

I am also going to make a plate that bolts to the host points on the trunnion with a single eye hook at the balance point so it lifts it perfectly and predictably.

I haven't done it all yet, but so far it looks like I can do it and keep the lift point about 3-4 inches behind the castors. If necessary I was also considering adding some dumbbell weights to the back of the engine hoist to counter balance it and make sure it can't tip.

Extanker,

I love 5 axis. It's actually what I cut my teeth on back in the auto industry programming big Mecof and Jobs machines. The set up I have now is a lot smaller obviously and a little different being a trunnion system but it's still very cool and exciting for me. I love the versatility and freedom of it, especially when I am also the person designing the parts that I will be making.

It does need a lot of thought and care with retract and positioning moves but once you get into it, it's so rewarding and almost mesmerizing to watch.

Good (or rather great) software makes all the difference when it comes to programming 5 axis. Post processor too.

[extanker59]

What CAM systems have you used for 5 axis work? Is one of the major ones better at 5 axis than others? This question is not to start a "my CAM is better than your CAM" wars. Just looking for informed opinions. We use CAMWorks and I've used MasterCAM V9 (in 2.5 axis work) so my experience is not wide.

[manike]

It's been a while since I used anything other than Tebis. www.tebis.com

I started out with CADDS5, I have used (albeit briefly and many years ago) Delcam, Hyperworks, Catia, and Ideas. I used to bench mark CAD/CAM software many many years ago for Land Rover. I was actually responsible for getting Tebis introduced into the design areas of the Ford group, and then did end up working for Tebis for a number of years running a UK subsidiary for them, so I am pretty biased.

I haven't used any of the other packages recently so I can't compare them now. I will say that from my earlier experience there was a world of difference between the major software companies and the smaller guys, although that gap may have been closed by now.

The proof with any CAM software is at the machine and in the parts produced, not in a sales demo.

[extanker59]

Interesting. Thanks. I'd never heard of Tebis. When we look into CAM again (when we get the sticker shock of updating costs), I'll be sure to ask for a demo of this one.

[manike]

Tebis will likely give you some sticker shock. It's not cheap, may even be the most expensive CAM software on the market, but it's definitely worth getting a demo. It comes out of Germany and is more well known in the major automotive and aerospace type facilities.

In my opinion when it comes to CAM software, and especially the more advanced stuff, getting a demo on YOUR parts and running on YOUR machine is vital. Sales demo's are all nice, but the real world is where it counts. Nothing like watch a rep actually programming your parts while you watch and then seeing how the code runs to know if it's all it's cracked up to be or not. Heck I'd even make them do it live so you get a real opinion of the time and work involved to get results. There can be a huge difference between software packages.

We got a little sidetracked but it's all good.

[extanker59]

LOL, thanks. I'll get it back on track: nice work with the 5 axis trunion set up!

[DRock]

Do you by chance play paintball?

There is a member I know on another forum who is an engineer and he goes by the same name.

[manike]

Same person. It's me.

[timf]

we have 2 VF3-ss with tr160 trunions just like you got going, never bothered to dowel them in, we just tram them in like a vise and pick up center of trunion hole, they dont come off very often anymore.

about the center distance both of ours are not zero, 1 is .150 and the other is .162.

we have a tool setter offline for all tlo's, i love the tool setter, tlo references gage line of holder/spindle which is relative to any set up used this way so any tool in my rack is usable in any set up or any other machine.

have you ever seen raptor workholding stuff, my new favorite fixturing for my trunions, its great for getting clearance on all sides of part and a lot more rigid then i thought it would be for larger parts.

we also have a few hurco 5 axis and a 3 axis with a trunion setting in Y axis to leave half the table open for vises to finish part.

been playing with these set ups since 05 when we got our first one, feel free to holler at me with questions and i'll help if i can

[manike]

Tim, I really appreciate your post and offer. Thanks.

It's interesting to see that my center difference is close to yours and also that your's are decently differently from each other.

Do you do much continuous 5 axis machining? Or mainly positional 3+2?

Do you bother making your positional programs run from a new zero point taken from the part, or just run it all from the main set up location?

That Raptor workholding stuff looks awesome. And maybe a little pricey. I'll take a closer look at that when I have time. I am setting up to be able to put a small Kurt vise on the platter, and then make custom fixtures for other parts.

I tried desperately to find a way to fit the Trunnion and still keep space for a 6" vise on the bed but the VF2 just seems too small. Hence why I wanted a way to swap out as quickly as possible.

[timf]

i've never had a part yet that forced me to use the full 5th, we did a lot of 3-d milling before we got the trunions so position and contour has always come as first idea and worked so far. (watch me get a turbine blade tomorrow now)

i like to program everything from center of all axis just to simplify the setups, as long as center is picked up right the rest is in my program and everything comes out beautiful.

it makes the Z's in the program funky but it all relative and only 1 offset that never changes.

i just position the model location in cam exactly where it is in the machine and cut it.

i used a lot of mighty-bite clamps and made fixtures before finding the raptors, we did make so extras in different sizes use those ideas after i got my hands on them.

they have i nice looking little mini tombstone on their site i seen yesterday that i plan to buy or create or maybe some of both soon, it looks handy.

as far as mounting a vise, i saw a setup that had plates mounted beside the turn table like spacers to get a level mounting surface for a vise.
they were plates with arcs cut out to fit around the faceplate and screwed to the trunion thru the lifting holes making a larger surface out of the 3 items (plates and faceplate) to mount a small vise that wouldn't rotate but just have a spot to mount for secondary operations when not using the trunion but not having to take it off.

Cutting Tool Engineering, January 2011: Multi-Axis Access
there is a photo of our hurco with the sideways trunion and 2 - 6 inch vises in this article. triangle precision is where im at. the article section title is Minimize handling, maximize competitiveness.

it was from cutting tool magazine a while back in Jan. 2011

capacity is less with that model but anything less then 8 inch cube fits fine.

[manike]

i like to program everything from center of all axis just to simplify the setups, as long as center is picked up right the rest is in my program and everything comes out beautiful.

it makes the Z's in the program funky but it all relative and only 1 offset that never changes.

i just position the model location in cam exactly where it is in the machine and cut it.

That's my plan. I even have my platter modelled up in my CAD CAM system and will just place parts onto it as needed and work them as if in real space.

Hmm would be nice to have a full Trunnion model, but probably unnecessary.

as far as mounting a vise, i saw a setup that had plates mounted beside the turn table like spacers to get a level mounting surface for a vise.
they were plates with arcs cut out to fit around the faceplate and screwed to the trunion thru the lifting holes making a larger surface out of the 3 items (plates and faceplate) to mount a small vise that wouldn't rotate but just have a spot to mount for secondary operations when not using the trunion but not having to take it off.

Oh that's a BRILLIANT idea. I can do that and still be able to put my platter system into place. I can make a mounting plate that goes around it and cut the top flat and have it set up to take my 6" vise. I love that idea. Thank you ever so much, I will be doing that.

Cutting Tool Engineering, January 2011: Multi-Axis Access
there is a photo of our hurco with the sideways trunion and 2 - 6 inch vises in this article. triangle precision is where im at. the article section title is Minimize handling, maximize competitiveness.

it was from cutting tool magazine a while back in Jan. 2011

Great stuff.

[Ydna]

That's a cool setup you've crafted, glad you posted it. About the center distance, I'm using a different model of indexer but I noticed a similar "almost round number" when locating the center of my A axis. I found it to be 1.997" below the platter, so I wondered if it was supposed to be a flat 2 inches. I measured it again the other day but retrieved the same number in the end.
I looked up and down the inspection sheet but couldn't see where it would get noted, doesn't seem to be useful. My guess is they try to make the measurement even but there are small inaccuracies everywhere.

I figure a difference like that would matter less in the A0.0 position and instead more when doing work where the A axis is +90 or -90, where you'll be slightly above the B axis centerline for the part. I don't make anything that accurate on the indexer (or that small) sometimes I use the meausred 1.997 but if I have somebody else set it up for me I might just tell them to adjust the number to an even 2 instead.

I prefer the table mounted indexers myself, you get more rotation out of them so for multi-side pats it's invaluable. The only thing you'll find lacking about the Haas hardware is the rotation speed. Crossing through a B axis singularity causes some tracking problems, so I'm often force to retract away from the part in between passes instead of going directly from pass to pass. It works but wastes time.
But there isn't much of an alternative unless moving up to an Emuge or Makino or Matsurra, wouldn't that be nice....LOL

[manike]

Andy, I am sure I will find out more about that but I haven't yet run any full 5 axis programs. It's getting close every day though. I had more set up work to get done first.

Spent a busy weekend working at the mill and computer programming.

Finished up the top of the platter. Cut it to size, interpolated all of the dowel holes and reamed them, then chamfered all of the holes and edges.



This is the underside of the vise plate I made previously before installing the trunnion.



This got mounted to the platter and bolted down in the middle. I have 6 1" dowels going through it for alignment. It slipped on perfectly and didn't move side to side once down.



Then the areas for the side bolts were cut to finish conditions.



And bolted down.



Yeah, I know that's a lot of bolts but it's in alumninium, I don't want to torque it to much, and ultimately it's going to be carrying a heavy vise and a work piece that could weight (in theory) up to 80lbs so I figured overkill was good.

Next I cut the center bolt locations down to finished specs and re-installed the bolts.



Now for some fun machining.

Through the window (needs replacing).



Yeah I know my 0.5" End Mill needs replacing but the picture makes the swirl marks look worse than they are. It's perfectly fine for a vise fixture that's for sure.



The plate is made so that I can use two sets of keys on the bottom of the vise (one set in X and one set in Y) and they fit into the slots perfectly. The holes in the slots being clearance for the key bolt heads. I mirrored it all so that if for some strange reason I needed to put the vice on the other way I could. Not sure why that would happen but better to mill a couple of extra slots now rather than later. This pictures was taken before I ran the chamfer program for the slots and internal edges. I knocked the corners off everywhere.

Next I dropped the vise on. Fitted beautifully. No play even without being bolted down.



Then here's another part I made earlier...



I made two of them, they are identical and mirrored.

They are used with 1/2-13 bolts to lock the vise down into it's new home.







I had to cut the handle nut down slightly as when I tilted the A to 90 degrees it was hitting by 0.25" but once that was taken care of I can get full rotation in all axis's with no issues.

Other work I did was adjusting the post processor to force a G53 location at the start and end of the program that is safe for tool changing and has A and B 0. With the trunnion on the machine and the extra plate height underneath it if I am not very careful it's crash city on a tool change.

I actually position the left high part of the trunnion under the center of the tool change spin the tools around it as they change. Damn scary at first and with the larger tools I still have to be careful of the part position on the platter (I couldn't do it with the vise rotated at B 90) but otherwise it is working beautifully. If I ever have bigger parts that I can't move out of the way on the platter I'll have to resort to manual tool changes.

And finally I used the new vice set up to make 4 matching soft jaws so that I can now hold stuff and make actual parts rather than making parts to be able to make parts.



Soft jaws will be going on tonight and the next stage begins.

Oh, I still have to make a block to mount up and use as an offset for the tool height (so everything is set relative to the bed) for the mean time (and because I need to swap a worn tool out) I'm going to skim the top of one soft jaw to a set height above the bed and use that to set up temporarily.