[Joa]

I'm looking for a used, relatively affordable, small enclosed VMC for 3D machining. Something in a size of about 20" of X for a small shop footprint. I don't need anything extremely fancy, just reliable and easy to maintain with good parts availability. Think Toyota Camry or Honda Civic.

Or another way to look at it is that I want to buy a 1987 Toyota 4Runner... small, simple, efficient, affordable, and readily available used. It doesn't break down much but when it does (like in a crash) I can buy used/new parts for it easily and work on it myself.

Of these five brands, what would you recommend and why?

Mori Seiki
Kitamura
Matsuura
Okuma
Mazak

[dak1]

I'm just curious. With soooo many options out there, how did you narrow it down to these 5 brands? While all very reputable, I see some rather notable price point differences (at least at the new equipment level). I'm not sure how resale values compare.

[thefu]

think haas...

[wizard]

think haas...

I had to wonder why Haas was left off his list myself. They have some very nice small foot print mills.

Also I think he is a bit in denial, fixing old CNC machines is not like fixing up old cars. At times the parts are no longer available or are priced so high that you have lots of incentive to buy new. I'm especially thinking controls here. It really isn't the iron you have to worry about it is the controls and the parts and support if available. When spare parts become a small fraction of the machines replacement cost you have issues.

So in this regard I wouldn't be looking at old CNC equipment unless I had the intention of making the machine a hobby. The hobby being keeping it running, find parts, repairing them and etc. So the question is how old is old for CNC machines? Like everything it depends, but five years is the point where you should start to verify that spare parts for the controls won't be an issue. Anything later than ten years should involve lots of thought.

The only other option is to DIY upgrade to the controls. This actually can become a hobby unto itself but at least you would have supportable controls.

Hopefully I'm not over doing it with my focus on controls, but it is very easy to get bitten in the rear with old CNC equipment.

[dak1]

think haas...

Specifically the one I wondered why wasn't on the list. Very popular, it seems. Others come to mind as well.

Makino
Fryer
Brother

Toyoda......Ironically part of the Toyota family. As I was told by a Toyoda sales rep, it's all the same except they changed a T to a D to sepearte the automotive from the MTB side

[underthetire]

And those car brands are pretty high on parts cost!

It all depends on how fast you want to 3D..

But for cheap, simple, reliable, low parts cost...HAAS.

For high speed 3D-Mori or Makino

[dak1]

Specifically the one I wondered why wasn't on the list. Very popular, it seems. Others come to mind as well.

Makino
Fryer
Brother

Toyoda......Ironically part of the Toyota family. As I was told by a Toyoda sales rep, it's all the same except they changed a T to a D to sepearte the automotive from the MTB side

Might have been the other way around, but oh well.

It also depends whether you desire conversational programming capability or not.

[Joa]

Thanks for all your suggestions. Since we're talking about empirical observations everyone has horror stories and praises about their pet brands These five just happened to have the more reliable reputations of the ones that I've researched. And I've heard lots of horror stories about Haas, that's why it's not on the list.

The things that often go bad on machines like spindles, pumps, controllers, switches, etc. are what I would like to be able to buy used as replacement parts.

I don't need conversational controls. Higher speeds for 3d machining would be nice but aren't as important as accuracy and reliability.

BTW, does anyone know of a website that keeps track of all the basic specs for CNC mills and lets you sort and compare them? Like RitchiSpecs but for tools.

[underthetire]

I could tell you horror stories about Okuma, Mori, Mazak and Makino as well. It's all about how the dealer/builder takes care of the customer. Some machines, no matter how good they are, just don't fit in with a customers needs or expectations.

[wizard]

Look hard enough you can find all sorts of horror stories. Buying used though is always a gamble as you are not likely to know a machines specific history. Or to put it another way don't judge a company and its new machines by the behavior of a fifteen year old machine with five owners under its belt.

I could tell you horror stories about Okuma, Mori, Mazak and Makino as well. It's all about how the dealer/builder takes care of the customer. Some machines, no matter how good they are, just don't fit in with a customers needs or expectations.

Yes very big deal! I just got done reading another thread by some one buying an old SouthBend lathe expecting a new machine. If you walk into a purchase with the wrong expectations you will have misgivings afterward. Frankly the issue with used CNC equipment in my mind lies more with the controls than anything. Buying old CNC hardware means less features and more bugs and possibly no support. It is very important to know what you are getting into in that respect. Especially if 3D milling is a significant goal, a lot of the old controllers simply don't have enough RAM to do modern work.

[Joa]

Ok, I'll concede a bit... boy, those Fanuc Robodrills look sweet for small aluminum parts. Crazy fast rapids and tool changes. How is US support and parts for these machines?

[dak1]

Great little machines if you wnat to do drilling. Not recommended for milling purposes from my viewpoint. It'll get you by with light duty milling in aluminum as you mentioned, but don't be too wild with your expectations. Ours is an old (1996) machine & still very nice for what we do with it, but when milling comes into the picture, it' quickly discarded as a viable & efficient processing solution. Again, it's old so I can't speculate on newer, more current conditions, but our control (16-M) is the most unfriendly, challenging, & navigationally impaired Fanuc I've yet to see (even as compared to some mid 80's controls). Pay attention to this if you look seriously at them. All that said, would I love to have one in my garage for homework? Absolutely.