[pbetzer]

Cincinnati VMC1000 with VFS5 AS10300
While center drilling completing 7 of 30 holes, the machine while moving to a new drill location, jerks and bangs and throws 2 error codes while shutting down:
X-Axis Servo Fail
X-Axis Excess Error

We can manually with hand wheel move both Y than X Axis
however, I must move the Y Axis first... if I move the X Axis first
the machine throws the errors and shuts down.
today I can't even align the axis....

[maver1ck]

Start by checking your motor cables for shorts or open connections. I have had to replace the X-Y harness on a number of these machines because people let chips pile up under the waycovers, which then get into the wireway and damage the cables.

[pbetzer]

Trying to get acess to wires... areas in wire path are clear no chips near them from what I can see using a flashlight and mirror.. we will build some jumpers to test wires...

[mike_Kilroy]

I'm with maver1ck; sounds like cable issue. not sure how to handle that move y first thing tho.....

anyway, another idea: since u can fault it on demand, have someone go move the x handcrank while you stand at cabinet and watch the drive LED display like a hawk: just before it faults and a2100 pulls the plug the display will show you the fault code of the issue if there is one. tell us what it is and we can maybe tell you closer what cable/etc to look at.

[John_B]

This may sound stupid, but check for coolant in your X servo motor. I was having some erratic faults on my Arrow, and traced and checked and tested for quite a while. Then I was doing some other repairs and took the cover off the X servo and there was coolant full up in the coupling area, and it had gotten drawn into the servo motor when it heated and cooled.

The last tech I had work on it had not re-installed the seals on either end of the ballscrew when I got it re-balled (he did a lot of other stupid stuff as well, if you're in Central Texas I will let you know who he is to stay away from him).

I cleaned & dried the motor out, got the seals for a total of about $40, and all is well.

Edit: forgot to mention, make sure the drain hole is clear and that there is clearance underneath as well.

[mike_Kilroy]

not stupid at all! actually coolant filled x motors is not that uncommon now! If you send one off for repair, be sure to tell them to reseal the motor as best they can or it can fill up again pretty quickly. Some folks put tin deflectors over it to help keep coolant off it. We used viton o rings between the end bells on a lot of these style motors and shaft seals when new and a lot of small repair shops don't put these back. Our new model replacement motor is actually rated IP67 now.

[pbetzer]

Actually, my x Axis motor and wires sit about 12" above the top of slanted coolant runnoff tray, and are centered on the bottom of the X axis support in a channel... one of the cleanest areas in my machine, no coolant residue or chips in or on the wires, connector, or motor cover.... my Y Axis is another story but it works without a problem.
I see there is a rubber seal on the motor cover, and the wire end cover ( blue plastic ). When I opened it up, it was as clean as the day it was built...well done Vickers...

[mike_Kilroy]

good to hear your motor is free of coolant; wasn't sure exactly what machine you had without the name like sabre, lancer, arrow, etc. then again I do not remember all motor orientation on all either. btw, the motor mfgr is Kollmorgen; we just private labeled them cincinnati, vickers, then siemens.

did u get a chance to watch drive display when it faults to identify the actual fault?

[John_B]

Just a suggestion, but have you removed the sheetmetal cover that is over the X axis servo and looked in there? The coolant migration I speak of does not come from the bottom from the tray area, it migrates down the ballscrew in through the bearings and accumulates between the ballscrew support bearings and the motor - in the coupling area.

Taking the encoder cover off may not display the full story, what will give you the real story will be removing the drive end plate. My encoder was pristine too, unfortunately when the other end just got loose coolant began dripping out - what followed when the plate and armature came out was disturbing.

Don't get me wrong, I hope this is not the case! Just offering my experience to help you find the problem.

Actually, my x Axis motor and wires sit about 12" above the top of slanted coolant runnoff tray, and are centered on the bottom of the X axis support in a channel... one of the cleanest areas in my machine, no coolant residue or chips in or on the wires, connector, or motor cover.... my Y Axis is another story but it works without a problem.
I see there is a rubber seal on the motor cover, and the wire end cover ( blue plastic ). When I opened it up, it was as clean as the day it was built...well done Vickers...

[maver1ck]

Having to move the Y-axis before you can move the X without the fault actually points more to a cable issue than anything else, that's why I suggested checking it first. Just one more tip, when you test the cable, make sure to test it in the location where the X-axis is faulted otherwise you might not see the issue.

What John B. referred to is fluid infusion, and this was a common issue on many of the Arrows and Sabres. Once we were aware of this happening we modified all of the machines we worked on so haven't run into it lately. One shop called me in after they had purchased three x-axis servo motors for one machine in a year (warranty doesn't cover this) because the service tech he was using kept replacing the motor without addressing the issue. Once I went in and corrected it, he hasn't replaced a motor since (that was about 10 years ago).

[pbetzer]

Machine is a 2000 Arrow VMC 1000, motors are x Axis MT504A9, Y Axis MT506A2.
I have only uncovered the X Axis Resolver end and found it to be clean... The opposite end will be clear because the ball screw was very dry...should there have been grease on this?
Ran the test this AM and got a reading at power supply control of 1. changing to P prior to throwing the error codes:
X Axis Fail;& X Axis excess error...
is there a way to get a new wiring harness for this machine or do I make my own? should I rewire both drives? is there an easier way to test these wires???

[maver1ck]

Before I answer the question about wiring, you posted a fault code this time. If I remember correctly, the "P" indicates Power Stage fault, which could mean either a problem in the drive, or could be caused by a short in the motor or wiring. While I still stand behind the recommendation to check the wiring (primarily because you indicated it only seems to happen in a specific location on the table), there could be a drive issue as well.

Now, on to the wiring questions, I have made wiring harnesses for these, but only when I was quoted lead times from MAG (Cincinnati) that were too long. I'd suggest you contact Mag for a quote (800-934-0735), and then determine if you want to make your own cables. If you choose to make your own, make sure you purchase high-flex cable, otherwise they will not last with the tight bends in the cable tracks.

If one cable has failed, it would probably be best to replace both. If you purchase from MAG, they quote it as an X-Y harness including both axes.

As I mentioned, finding the problem in the cable is dependent on testing it where the cable is most likely to have the issue (when it is faulted and will not let you move the X-axis at all). With machine power off, remove the power and feedback cables from the motor and the drive. Refer to your prints for proper pin configurations, and check each wire for an open/short.

[mike_Kilroy]

to verify the drive is ok, you can remove the 3 motor leads on the front of the x drive (Ma,Mb,Mc) and enable the drives so you get the 1. instead of u. If no P then drive is ok and short is in cable or motor. neat further test is to put wires back on (make sure same spots) then uncrew MS connector on X motor and try again: if cable is shorted you will get the P as confirmation. wiggle cable around to see if it has to move a tad to actually short out. Since P means short from Ma to Mb or Mc or ground, you can just ohm between all these with motor & drive disconnected also - all should be open circuit.

[mike_Kilroy]

Phil,

Sorry we didn't reconnect today on the phone.... turns out we can still order these premade hi flex cables for your machine from the factory! Just let us know the length needed in a 3 meter increment.... I will send PM also.

[slowlearner]

Good afternoon,
Its been awhile since I have posted on here. I have a Arrow 1000 x axis servo problem. On a cold startup everything will run fine for a couple of hours.
After that is when the hammering starts. This machine has run coolant constantly now for close to a year. Reading the posts above it may be time to follow Mikes and the others suggestions. Will I need any special technique or tools to open the servo?
Thanks guys,
Scott

[slowlearner]

It appears I temporarily dodged a bullet. The first thing i discovered after getting the way cover and the sheet metal off the servo coupling was that it was completely full of coolant. I dried everything out and it is functioning properly once again. I do realize this will bite me at a later date so I have a question for those of you that know more about these servos than I do.
I have 2 of these Arrow 1000's both with the A2100 control. The one I have been having the problem with is the 1996 model. The other is a 1998 model.
A visual inspection on both machines and their X axis servos indicate that the 96 has a Vickers label and is a smaller motor. The 98 has a Goldline label. Several years ago I had to replace the servo on the 98 and still have the old servo in house. It was supposed to have been repaired but never worked again. I had to purchase a new servo to get the machine running. I would like to send this nonworking motor off to my buddy Mike to get it properly repaired while I have time. My question is will the motors interchange?
The 1996 has a stock number of 1-604-0213 and a serial # of 95D413W-294.
The 1998 has a stock number of 1-604-0224 and a serial # of 96H415V-194.
The amps on both machines are the same ones.Anybody know if this will work?
Thanks,
Scott

[mike_Kilroy]

Hi Scott,

The older machine has our M-413W motor, the newer one our M-415V motor. IIRC, they changed to the LONGEr motor to increase inertia for better servo performance. You did not say which drive you have (AS10 or BDS4) so I cannot tell you you can just change them arbitrarily. I can tell you they both are sae 6 pole design with 6 pole resolvers but the 1.5" longer 415 motor prob is rated higher current (I dont have data here right now). If you tried to run the larger motor on the smaller drive it prob will work ok. If you try to run the smaller motor on the larger drive it may leave you in situation where current limits are too high and you could overheat and hurt the motor. the motor tuning may also not be stable in either mix-match case. but it may be fine. if you want better anser, email me and monday I will send you specs on both motors with comments so you can be sure not to hurt them. If you have our AS10 drives then the proper parameter file can be downloaded to match. If bds4's then you can change the comp card to match. lots of little intricate things. but it may just work for years mixing and matching too.....

FYI, we have supplied Mag new AKM motors for Arrow retrofits now. Z done (using same AS10 drive), X in process right now (same motor less brake). We can do same for the older Goldline motors also.....

[slowlearner]

Thanks Mike,
Yes both drives are the BDS4. When I bought the new servo for the 1998 from CMI there were problems with the parameters. They were modified a great deal but it has been flawless since then.(Knock on wood) lol
Hope your having a great weekend my friend and I'll talk to you soon.
regards,
Scott

[pbetzer]

Still need help Recap
It all started September 19 while running parts my Arrow 1000 throws these errors: X axis error: x axis excess: x axis encoder error: and “Axis drives are not Enabled”.
Notified Mike Kilroy, in need of some quick help. Was informed that there is probably coolant in the motor, or a broken wire. Checked the encoder wires (13 wires) no breaks, uncovered motor and found it to be clean and free of coolant.
Checked power feed (4 wires) and found an intermittent break when checked with an ohm meter on the #1 (Ma) wire. Bought a new wire and re wired the power lead to the motor. Powered it up and again got the same error codes, so we started testing wires again. Notified Mr. Kilroy and was told I had crossed a wire….so…. I tore my new wire apart and re soldiered the plug…powered up the machine, here comes the codes again, so…we began running the tests suggested by Mr. Kilroy (9/24) removing the power leads and the test indicated a problem with the motor…so…We sent the motor off to be repaired…Motor returned on 10/9… Installed motor and powered up the machine… and you guessed it same codes as day one….. After a long conversation with Mike and then Randy @ Kilroy, I was convinced to send the Drive controller back for repair…10/9 was told nothing was found wrong with the drive but the e-prom was re flashed and back it came on 10/11. Installed checked out drive, rebuilt motor, new cables, powered it up and once again I got the same codes…. After some more long phone calls with Randy @ Kilroy, we decided to look into the scales as a possible influence into my problem. After researching some old threads I found one about replacing the scales with the motor resolver by Mark Nichols.
I notified Mr. Nichols and he suggested I try this approach, so after he sent me some information on how to reconfigure my machine I tried it… it worked….
until
Well you see I screwed up, while trying to put the machine back together, ( re-install the covers), I moved the x axis so that I could reach to attach the covers and proceeded to run the table past its end (no I did not have the machine aligned), well I’ve done that before and knew how to fix that so no sweat… Then I looked at my screen and there it was “Axis drives are not Enabled” on the screen so I checked the drives in the back and there was a flashing “P” on the X Drive…. Now I took the drives apart and switched the Y drive for the X drive, but the flashing “P” stayed on the problem drive and I get the “Axis drives are not Enabled” Long story to ask “what do I do now?????”

[mike_Kilroy]

Phil, I have appointments this morning but will call you this afternoon if you want. You can also call Randy if you want to pass any ideas past him.

P fault means output short and 99.999% of the time a consistent P fault is from one of 2 things: an output motor power lead short phase-phase or phase to ground (cable or motor), or a shorted output IGBT module. A P fault is hard on the drive; it is high fast overcurrent. If a drive is turned on into a P fault often enough it will probably eventually blow the IGBT module. In 1980 a P fault would have meant you were lucky and the drive protected itself; 60% of the time the first short blew the drive. 90% of the time if someone had an output short if they turned it on 3 times they were about guaranteed to blow the drive. Today it is much much better, but eventually enough turn ons into shorted output can still blow the drive.

The way to tell if the short is inside or outside the drive is take off the motor wires at the drive and try it: no P fault the short is external; still P fault the drive is blown.

Phil, there is very little chance (my swag after 30 years in this field is 0.1% chance) that a feedback scale can cause a P fault. So I cannot tell you any good reason why it may have worked by changing from scale to drive feedback.

Did you also replace the feedback cable? The more I thought about your problem, getting past P fault finally with new cable, then run away/ Foldback fault instead, and telling you that means the phasing is off so try all 6 motor connection choices, I forgot your motor has halls and encoder feedback; that means all 3 have to be phased correctly. If you replaced the feedback cable too, and got 2 encoder wires swapped, then the halls and encoder would not match and no combination of motor leads would fix it.

I hope your X drive is not blown. If you don't get it fixed soon and want, if you send us your motor, drive, AND cables (both of them), we would be happy to check them as a complete set for no charge (assuming the drive is not shorted).