[rileydcasey]

Hello,
First Post. I am a MfgE Student from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. I work part time at a job shop here in San Luis Obispo. My boss approached me about researching ways to make our coolant stop stinking, and remove the tramp oil, and solids to extend coolant and tool life.

So far, I've come up with a lot of options. Skimmers, Coalescers, Centrifuge units, etc.

Along with that is the question of permanently mounted units vs portable units.

A little background: We have about 25 machines, mostly Fadal 4020s, but we also have 2 Mori vertical machining centers. Currently we use Blasocut 2000 Universal coolant, we cut 90% Aluminum, with some stainless and plastic occasionally. Our way oil is Hangsterfers Way Oil 2.

I have found a lot of products that claim to solve our exact problem, but I am having some trouble distinguishing which one would be best for us. I've looked into Zebra, Keller, Alfie, Eriez, and EdjeTech.

What are you using? Do you like it? If you could change something would you?

We are mainly worried about the Mori's since they are our new, fancy machines and we want to keep them nice. They have high pressure coolant, and a lot of flood coolant, along with a mist collector so there is a very high volume of coolant contained in the machines and it is in many chambers. Since the machines run almost contstantly though, the coolant is circulated frequently. This also means that the tramp oil is well emulsified and probably more difficult to seperate. Just something to consider.

We are more interested in getting units that work well than saving a few bucks, but cost is still always a concern. Thanks in advance for your input!

[scott.livesey]

ok
does the coolant pump from a common tank and drain back to this tank?
first figure out total GPM involved.
when I have this information I can better answer the question. we have several oil/water seperators here where we clean part wash water.
if all the coolant is in a common system, I can help you design a system.
scott livesey

[rileydcasey]

Each machine has an individual sump. about 20 30gallon tanks, 5 50 gallon tanks, and 2 300 gallon tanks.

[underthetire]

Not all created equal, I'll tell you that. The cheap plastic separating tanks don't work well, the good ones are pricey. We sold a lot of phase-sep units when I worked for the mori dealer. Made by Turbo conveyor/LNS. Those work very well, but do require some up keep to keep them efficient. The place I'm at now, we simply put Wayne belt skimmers on all the machines, including the moris. Buy the low speed units, the faster the belt turns the more coolant comes out with the oil. Add a fish tank bubbler if the machines sit.

[Geof]

Have a look at Keller Products, Inc. they have a large range of very good tramp oil separators.

I suppose I should give a bit more info. I bought a medium size portable Keller unit as a test. We had a 300 gallon tank full of coolant that had so much tramp oil it was like thick brown cream. Over a period of ten days the Keller coalescing system removed almost 50 gallons of tramp oil and the coolant ended up nice and white and fluid and went back into the machines. The end result was I bought fifteen machine mounted units and made things a lot less smelly in cleaner in our shop.

[rileydcasey]

Currently, I'm leaning away from the Zebra simply because they look cheap. The Keller and EdjeTech look to be more well made. The self-priming air pump is a nice feature too.

[txcncman]

Filtering is not out of the question.

[rileydcasey]

Filtering is not out of the question.

Please explain what you mean. I was under the impression that the tramp oils are not easily removed using a filter such as a bag style filter.

[rileydcasey]

Have a look at Keller Products, Inc. they have a large range of very good tramp oil separators.

I suppose I should give a bit more info. I bought a medium size portable Keller unit as a test. We had a 300 gallon tank full of coolant that had so much tramp oil it was like thick brown cream. Over a period of ten days the Keller coalescing system removed almost 50 gallons of tramp oil and the coolant ended up nice and white and fluid and went back into the machines. The end result was I bought fifteen machine mounted units and made things a lot less smelly in cleaner in our shop.

How have the Keller units held up over time? Have you had to replace any of the air-powered pumps? How long have you been running them? Has any of the coalescing media clogged with fines? How well does it filter out fines? Do you have to do any regular maintenance other than draining off the oil?

[txcncman]

Please explain what you mean. I was under the impression that the tramp oils are not easily removed using a filter such as a bag style filter.

The system I saw used a series of 55 gallon drums. First was packed with either poly or fiberglass filter material. The kind you would find sold in bulk rolls for HVAC units. This was to remove solids. Next drum was set up as a separator. Tramp oil was floated off the top into a disposal drum. Coolant came off the bottom into another drum. Gravity feed system itself. Coolant was transferred from machines into a drum mounted on wheels with a small electric pump. Same pump used to transfer used coolant into the filter system. Same pump used to transfer filtered coolant back to machines. When filter material became too used to pass coolant through efficiently, it was drained and disposed of and replaced.

[Geof]

How have the Keller units held up over time? Have you had to replace any of the air-powered pumps? How long have you been running them? Has any of the coalescing media clogged with fines? How well does it filter out fines? Do you have to do any regular maintenance other than draining off the oil?

I will respond more in a day or so I just boarded a 14 hour flight to NewZealand and have to turn my phone off.

[underthetire]

Carefull with filters, some states (like ca), the used filter media is considered hazardous waste, since it has solids and oils in it. Costs much more to get rid of it.

[BlaserSwisslube]

Hello Riley,

I would suggest you look into a better way line first. Blaser Swisslube recommends ConocoPhillips Hydroclear TCS68 waylube for our metalworking fluids. This is a sulfur free waylube without any smell. This also helps solve the stink issues you are having due to anaerobic bacteria metabolizing the sulfur which is in your current waylube. This is a Vactra 2 equivalent product.

Secondly I would suggest switching up to a newer more robust Blaser product called BC20SW New for you machines. This fluid is substantially cleaner, and more bio-stable than the 2000 Universal product. It also lends to better foam control in high pressure systems, with much improved tramp oil rejection. The 2000 Universal and BC20SW New are totally compatible, so there is no need to switch out all the coolant.

I would recommend looking into the Keller TKO coalescers as they work well. If you decide to go this way, make sure to tell Keller that you are using Blaser and that you want the Red color cartridges.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me at [email protected]

Best regards,

Brett Reynolds, CMFS
Sr. Applications Engineer
Blaser Swisslube Inc.

[scott.livesey]

How have the Keller units held up over time? Have you had to replace any of the air-powered pumps? How long have you been running them? Has any of the coalescing media clogged with fines? How well does it filter out fines? Do you have to do any regular maintenance other than draining off the oil?

hi riley,
hope trip to NZ went well. I have no experience on Keller units. ideas and experience on the rest:
all air powered pumps(we use wilden and sandpiper) will eventually break. between the fines and the other chemicals involved, diaphrams will leak and you will have to replace or rebuild the pump.
clogged coalescing media depends on the media.
how well fines are seperated is a function of tank size and flow rate.
you are eventually going to have to take the unit apart and do a full cleaning. We are on a six week schedule with ours. Again, this is a function of tank size, tank shape, and flow rate. now that I have some data, i will work up a sketch for you.

[Geof]

How have the Keller units held up over time? Have you had to replace any of the air-powered pumps? How long have you been running them? Has any of the coalescing media clogged with fines? How well does it filter out fines? Do you have to do any regular maintenance other than draining off the oil?

All the units are holding up well and we have not had to replace any of the air-powered pumps. But we have only had them for just over tyhree years.

So far none of the coalescing media has clogged with fines mostly because the units have pre-filters. The machine mounted units use large cartridge filters and the bigger unit a large bag filter. On some machines the cartridges have to be replaced every couple of months because so much fines are produced they filter clogs.

However even if the coalescers did clog they can be cleaned. They actually look like filters but they are really many hard plastic discs with fine grooves in the surfaces all strung on a long tube with holes. The coolant is pumped into the tube and comes out between the disc through the grooves. It is possible to take them apart and clean the discs.

These coalescers are so good that if you leave a unit running 24 hours a day for a few weeks not only do they remove all the tramp oil they also start stripping the coolant emulsion out of the water. We have found you only need to run them for a few hours every few days.

[rileydcasey]

Thanks for the replys everyone, looks like we're probably going to look into the Keller TKO units. They recommended a 14 gallon unit for the Mori's and a 6 gallon unit for the Fadal 4020s. I'll keep you all updated on how they perform.

The EdjeTech units seem nice, but it's difficult to justify spending an extra $1000 per unit without adding any performance benefit.

[rileydcasey]

On some machines the cartridges have to be replaced every couple of months because so much fines are produced they filter clogs.

What type of materials are you running on these machines and how many hours per day are they running? I'm trying to get an idea of how that would compare to our machines. We're hoping to have a relatively maintenence free system.

[rileydcasey]

Well, we got a TKO 14 to try out on one of the Mori Seikis. Its been running for more than a week now and we're not really seeing results. I'm thinking that the high pressure coolant system may have emulsified the tramp oils past the point of extraction. Is anyone on here running a coalescer on a high pressure system? If so, is it working?

[davidp]

Riley,
Sorry to come in on this one late in the discussion.
Bad odours come from anaerobic bacteria, as an earlier post outlined. The lack of air/oxygen is usually a result of the sealing of the oil surface by free tramp oils (way lube, hydraulic oils etc). This suggests that you have a period of time where the coolant is stagnant or settled. If this is the case then a skimmer will work. We use Abanaki belt skimmers.

Most mechanical systems will struggle if the emulsion is continually being agitated but if you're able to allow the coolant to settle, separate and form a skin then you can get at it with a skimmer.
A couple of other points. Look at how much tramp oil is being emitted by the pumps. Some older Mori lathes have a very high consumption - I have no knowledge of their machining centres though.
Anaerobic bugs kick off after the air/oxygen has gone. I have been considering feeding a small amount of air from an aquarium type pump into a sump as a permanent feed. Also copper has a natural biocide effect - I may try using small bore copper tubes for that air supply.

Have you used dip-slides to determine the levels of bugs? Have you used any bactericide in addition to what's in the emulsion? Do you regularly dose with bactericide?
Before testing did you consider a sump/tank removal and steam clean?

If your tramp oil has a small amount of emulsifier in it or the emulsion has spare emulsifiers in it then you may lose some of the tramp/way lube into the emulsion. You won't get that back but the free oils can be tackled, and it is they that are, in my opinion, at the back of your problem.

Regards and good luck

[rileydcasey]

Just thought I'd let you all know that we now have two Keller TKO-14 coalescers. The one on the MoriSeiki doesn't seem to do much. I beleive this has a lot to do with the high pressure coolant system. The tramp oils are too emulsified to actually be seperated. The other TKO bounces around the Fadal VNCs. It seems to work very well. I am still amazed at the amount of oil it removes. Also, the smell is starting to go away. Thanks for all the help!