[Randy Stevenson]

Just curious...

If you were just starting to learn CAD-CAM, and had the option of using (learning) an old release of Autocad, say release 11, or the latest version of BobCad, which would you choose?

BobCad includes the CAM side with post-processor, so it's an all-in-one package, whereas Autocad would need something for the CAM side.

Randy

[ger21]

I wouldn't bother with any version of AutoCAD older than V14. I've never used BobCAD, so I won't comment on it.

The type of parts you want to make have some bearing on which direction you go. Also, is this for a hobby application?

There are plenty of inexpensive CAD and CAM programs available. You might want to take a look at an inexpensive CAD program, like DesignCAD, and use that with SheetCAM. www.imsisoft.com www.sheetcam.com

Once you learn a 2D type CAD program, it's usually not hard to switch to another.

[jonbanquer]

Just curious...

If you were just starting to learn CAD-CAM, and had the option of using (learning) an old release of Autocad, say release 11, or the latest version of BobCad, which would you choose?

BobCad includes the CAM side with post-processor, so it's an all-in-one package, whereas Autocad would need something for the CAM side.

Randy

Not enough info provided to give you an intelligent answer.

What kind of parts do you model ?

Do you have plans to create models with aesthetically pleasing lines such as consumer items or maybe something like a car body or would you be happy with something that just did prismatic (block like) models ?

Is high quality training material important to you like it is to me or do you prefer to attend seminars for the basics ?

What is your budget ?

Is wide spread use of the product you learn important because this is something your doing to increase your marketability or do you care much more about technology and implementation in a CADCAM product ?

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[Randy Stevenson]

Thanks for the reply.

My hobbies seem to keep me busy making parts - mainly for old aircraft or motorcycles, or old machines, etc. Just learing CAD, I've been using release 11 Autocad, with a tablet, off and on but not enough to get proficient with it. I have not done any 3D work with it, and it won't do solids. Haven't even done any rendering (I dont have the AME option, so maybe I can't). My only training has been the book. However, the more I use it, even for archetectual stuff around the house, the more I appreciate it and like using it.

With the recent purchase of an old Anilam equipped 3 axis Lagun knee mill, I see the need to dive into learing CAD/CAM. I was hesitant to spend a bunch of time and effort learning an old version of Autocad, so I looked and looked but could not find any package that seemed a better value than Bobcad 20. I figured I'd have a CAD system a dozen years or so newer than what I had, and also get the CAM side I need to run the mill. I made the assumption the Bobcad had to be better than what I had, simply due to the age difference.

I've been going through the Bobcad training, and the software seems night and day to what I've been using - I'm really thrilled, but... in the short time I've worked with it, I've experienced a few crashes and had to find a work around for something that I thought should have worked as is. Combine this with some of the negative posts I occasionally see about Bobcad, I wonder if even an old version of an expensive program like Autocad is more functional than a new version of some of the lower priced products. Never had any trouble with Autocad whatsoever, and maybe someone out there who knows R11 might say it's every bit as good once you learn it.

If I can learn how keep BC from crashing (don't mind a documentated work-around or two), and it runs the machine OK (my Anilam is a conversational box), I'll be more than satisfied.

[jonbanquer]

"but... in the short time I've worked with it, I've experienced a few crashes and had to find a work around for something that I thought should have worked as is."

LOL

This is yet another reason why some of our users still use BobCADCAM V17. In addition the integration is better in V17 as far as the NC Editor and the CAD Window are concerned. V20 was a step backward in regards to the latter. I often experience what you do as far as crashing V20. V17 is very stable.

"Combine this with some of the negative posts I occasionally see about Bobcad,..."

All one has to do is check http://www.practicalmachinist.com in the CNC Forum. There is very good reason why so many people are so unhappy with BobCADCAM and it's management.

Based on what you describe you do, I think you should download Rhino. The downloadable demo version does everything the full version of Rhino does except it will only save 25 times. After that it keeps working but you can no longer save your work. It also has the Copy and Cut To Clipboard function disabled. Rhino can be downloaded from McNeel's website:

www.rhino3d.com

There is no comparsion CAD wise between Rhino and BobCAD. It's not even close. If you take any student courses in design you can purchase the educational version (no difference between educational version and regular version) for around $200. After you are done with classes you can use the educational version to make money with. The regular version is often discounted by Rhino Value Added Resellers. I think it's often sold between $600 and $800. Why not download Rhino and tell me what you think ? McNeel also has a user group for Rhino that is open to anyone... you don't have to own the software. The help there is very good. Also, Rhino has some of the best documentation in the business.... especially the Level 2 training guide. Just excellent.

I think if you try Rhino you probably will never go back to AutoCAD R11.

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[kenlambert]

Bobcad works fine for me I do hobby stuff ,started with v19 and now have v20 it seems that when v19 crashed ofter all the updates was when I would lick on the wrong process for what i was doing. You can change the auto save settings and if it does crash you will not lose anything. I haven't had any problems with v20 so far. I have autodesk 2006 and Alibre 8.2 Pro and still do all my stuff in Bobcad.

[mortimer]

All this talk about BobCadCAM makes me worried as it is the software that comes with the Router I am buying. How good is it though with 3D and relief carving? I will be doing carvings for bed heads and drawer fronts among trophies and plaques and signs. Can Bobcad do stuff like this in the picture?

[Dan B]

I think if you try Rhino you probably will never go back to AutoCAD R11.

Wait until you see what Rhino V4 has in store. It's currently in beta right now, and I can tell you that there are some major enhancements. Associativity between curves and surfaces, a layout mode, linetypes and weights, UDT (for solid deformation), and much more.

The following link is not public knowledge yet (it's still being developed so it's not 100% complete), but check it out:

http://www.rhino3d.com/4/newfeatures.htm

Watch for it this summer.

Dan

[kenlambert]

Mortimer
Bobcad can do those from what my cd's show.

[eman5oh]

Check out A9 cad it mostly the same as recent Autocad releases and is free.

[jonbanquer]

Wait until you see what Rhino V4 has in store. It's currently in beta right now, and I can tell you that there are some major enhancements. Associativity between curves and surfaces, a layout mode, linetypes and weights, UDT (for solid deformation), and much more.

The following link is not public knowledge yet (it's still being developed so it's not 100% complete), but check it out:

http://www.rhino3d.com/4/newfeatures.htm

Watch for it this summer.

Dan

Is there a Level 3 Rhino Training manual yet ? Has one been announced ?

I'm suppose to have VX 12 here in a few weeks. Be interesting to see how far along they have come with the UI overhaul they started in VX 11. This VX 12 release is right on the heals of VX 11.... someone's working hard !

No matter what happens with VX 12 I most likely will get Rhino 4 despite my displeasure with how long it has taken to get Rhino where it should have been.

Have you used any of N Powers add-ins for Rhino ? Are they popular ?

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[Dan B]

Hi Jon,

I have never seen a level 3 tutorial.

As for the N-Power plug-ins, yes I have tried them. I personally didn't like them, so we never purchased them. I don't hear too much about them, so I would guess that they are not too popular.

Dan

[mortimer]

thanks Ken. I still need to know about EzRouter. Has anyone used their cnc table?

[racerguy13]

I have an Anilam Crusader II controler and I am trying to make it talk with Bobcad V18 and I can not get it to communicate it will send info from the controller but it comes in on the pc as just random letters and numbers I have made sure that all the parameters are correct and still nothing if you have any suggestions let me know. Thanks
Rick

[The One]

The numbers and letters ae commonly due to having the one of the settings wrong. A common misconception is that the settings in BobCAD need to match the settings in the control exactly. This is not the case. You may have better results if you vary the settings.

Try using 7 Data Bits, Even Parity and 1 Stop Bit. This is the most common setting to get the correct data into BobCAD-CAM. If that does not work try changing The Stop Bit to 2 and see if that handles. Otherwise you may want to call Support for BobCAD or the machine, I would go to BobCAd first as that is where you are finding the error.

Regards

[jonbanquer]

Hi Jon,

I have never seen a level 3 tutorial.

As for the N-Power plug-ins, yes I have tried them. I personally didn't like them, so we never purchased them. I don't hear too much about them, so I would guess that they are not too popular.

Dan

Dan,

What did you not like about the N-Power plug-ins ? The UI seems a little funky. Was it that it was hard to use or you just have no need for a construction history ? Also, what about Variable Filleting. Has the V4 Beta got this covered yet ? Is it robust ? VX just kicks butt in this area. Got to be the most reliable kernel I have ever used. Rock solid. While were at it how is the 2D machining in WorkNC ? I know it's very quick and very good at 3 axis surfacing toolpath. How about things like 2 1/2 axis pocketing ?

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[Dan B]

Hi Jon,

I didn't like the N-power plug-ins for most of the reasons you mentioned. The UI, no need for the history etc. Also, on my test cases, I had many scenarios that failed.

As for variable filleting, yes V4 has this covered. From what I have seen and tried, it works well. I believe they are still ironing out some corner handling issues, but that's about it. There is also a variable chamfer which seems to work well too. Honestly though, I haven't thoroughly tested them beyond a few simple applications. It's not something that comes up a lot for us.

As for WorkNC, it handles 2D and 2 1/2 axis pocketing superbly. WorkNC is strong in all departments except simultneous 5-axis. I'm evaluating the optional 5-axis module right now, and for the most part, I'm not too impressed. What is impressive is the 3to5 axis feature that automatically converts a 3 axis toolpath into a simultaneous 5 axis path. On the tube everything looks great (collision checking, machine simulation etc) but on the machine the paths do a lot of stuttering, and surface marring. There are some types of paths (rolling, or swarf cutting) for example that seem impossible to run collision free between the tool and the part. In other words, gouging.

I have submitted some workzones to my support people for analysis, and they admit there are some issues. On a positive note, the new release is suppose to address these very concerns. I'm hoping version 18 (available very soon) will make the simultaneous paths usable in the real world.

The 5-axis drilling works very well, but in my opinion, should be married with the feature recognition, for a combo that would be incredible.

I will hold off purchasing the 5X module for now. We have a user meeting in Novi Mich. this Friday, so hopefully I will be able to get some answers then.

How is VX with regard to CAM? Does it do positional and simultaneous 5X?

Thanks

Dan

[jonbanquer]

Dan,

In Rhino V4 have they done anything about toolbars management ? Do you
use any other CAM application besides WorkNC or Visual Mill ? The
reason I ask is that I like a lot about RhinoCAM except it's
implementation (or lack thereof) of MachineWorks. MecSoft licenses
MachineWorks but it's not the kind of implementation that say Gibbs or
FeatureCAM has. I have posted on the MecSoft Web Board and asked for
improvement in this area but since MecSoft Web Board does not allow
one to upload attachments I have no way of showing MecSoft what I mean
by proper implementation of MachineWorks with a screen capture from
Gibbs or FeatureCAM. At a price range of $1,500 for both Rhino and
RhinoCAM MecSoft could be a very, very popular CADCAM product in
Phoenix, Arizona if MecSoft had a good VAR here.... MecSoft has no VAR
here. I'm sure the package would also be very popular elsewhere. It
seems to me that if MecSoft was focused they could remove the majority
of seats of BobCADCAM as the combination of Rhino and RhinoCAM is
superior in all aspects of CAD and in most aspects of CAM. It's
amazing to me how popular BobCADCAM is in Phoenix. It's usually not
the only CADCAM system but it does get used. The funny thing is many
use older versions because the newer versions have not been stable and
many experienced users have got better things to do than crash to the
desktop numerous times a day. MecSoft has a tremendous opportunity but
I'm not sure Joe Annand (MecSoft's owner) knows how to compete and win
against a marketing company like BobCAD.


You asked about VX CAM. Specifically 5 axis. VX has very powerful CAM
features including 5 axis simultaneous and of course 5 axis positioning.
I have the VX 11 CAM .pdf's. If you drop me an e-mail at [email protected]
I would be happy to email you the VX 11 CAM .pdf's
and other VX 11 pdf's if you wish. VX 11 also had all new .pdf's done
for Mold and Die, Progressive Die and Bottle Closures as VX seems to
have targeted these markets very hard.

The problem with VX CAM is the UI. I don't think I could produce CAM
programs with VX at anywhere near the rate I can with say Gibbs. If
time was not a concern ( and it always is in the kinds of machining
job shops I work for) the VX CAM is certainly very, very powerful.
Lots of control over the toolpath as far as I can tell... I have done
a lot of modeling in VX but very little CAM as I don't like the CAM
UI. I have no doubt the CAM UI is going to get an overhaul just like
much of the VX CAD UI did starting with VX 11. I know you don't like
parametric, history based modelers but VX is by far the best
parametric, history based modeler I have ever used. VX's kernel is
powerful beyond belief and rock solid. It's very easy for me to model
most things in VX but when you get to the surface tools like splines,
VX has not done a good job documenting them and I don't particularly
like surface and spline tools using the guess method so I'm patiently
waiting for VX to do a better job documenting it's surface and spline
tools. Regardless I'm still going to purchase Rhino V4. I had hoped
that what should be in Rhino V4 would have been available 3 years ago.
Perhaps now that McNeel has lost their ability to sell Autodesk
products development will not be at such a snails pace and perhaps
Rhino's UI will someday not be so AutoCAD like. I really prefer UI's
that are like what VX has done which a good part of VX 11.... no
toolbar glut. Even before VX 11 much of the similar solid and surface
functionality was grouped together in dialog boxes. When you buy VX I
don't believe they include a 5 axis post constructor... I think you
have to get an upgrade to the stand alone post constructor that comes
with VX.

Hope this is the kind of honest info your looking for.

jon

[Dan B]

Hi Jon,

Yes, I do appreciate you taking the time to provide this feedback. I have looked at VX before, but found that it crashed pretty frequently. This was a while ago, so I have no doubt that the latest version is more solid.

As far as CAM programs, WorkNC is the one I know inside and out. Visual Mill and RhinoCAM I have only experienced through demo's. We did purchase PowerMill a couple of years ago, but we ended up returning it for a refund. The product was pretty good (although not substantially better than WorkNC, IMHO), but the support was almost non-existent.

I attended a preview of WorkNC V18, which is due to be released later this year, on Friday. There are some nice new features being added, such as spiral-core roughing (which seems to me to be along the same idea as SurfCam's truemill feature). There is also something called adaptive Trochoidal roughing, which I do recall PowerMill having too. The path keeps an even load on the tool by approaching certain scenarios with circular motion. The nice thing with these paths, and a few other re-written paths, is that they use the stock model constantly to determine the tool load. The next logical step will be feed optimization based on volume of cut.

As for my 5-axis difficulties in WorkNC, it looks like they have been addressed in the next version. There was a lot of emphasis on smoothing 5X cutter paths, which is the only problem I'm having with it. I also got a couple of tips (incorporating an inverse time feedrate, for example) that may help me right now. I will test this today.

I also liked the new dynamic holder collision check, which doesn't treat holder collision as an after thought, but calculates the path by considering the holder. I'm sure this was an easy feature to add, as this technology is related to the auto5 module, with a slightly different spin, I guess you could say.

As for BobCad/Cam, I can honestly say I don't know of a single shop in this area (the good side of the Detroit River ) that uses it. This is a WorkNC/PowerMill town, as it is mostly mold shops (over 120 companies making molds, at last count). There is also a lot of Lemoine, and some MasterCam here too I believe. The CAM software here seems for the most part to be the more high-end applications. I don't know of anyone here using Visual Mill either.

As for your V4 question, yes the toolbars are getting attention. The last beta seems to have made some big progress in this area. The ability to lock toolbars in place is a welcome one for me.

Progress has been slow on V4. I have been beta testing since Aug 2004 when the first WIP's were released. I have to say though, what I have seen of it to this point is pretty impressive. I expect that it will probably be released sometime this summer.

Dan

[Randy Stevenson]

I wanted to follow-up on my original post, and give credit where credit is due.

Now that I've had some time to draw a few parts with V20.6, I'm getting pretty comfortable with the software, and have been able to do what I want to do without having to refer back to the training CD's too often. There might be a couple of things that I wish worked otherwise (3 entity arc doesn't rubberband like Autocad, for one), but overall I am extremely pleased with the value. BC is a lot easier for me to use than the old version of Autocad, and the ability to work in 3D with solids, and quickly render the part, makes all the difference in the world. Hopefully, when I start cutting parts, I'll feel the same.

As an aside, I requested a quote to machine a motorcycle wheel the other day, and offered to send the file in BobCAD. The response was a terse "$8000 minimum". I figured he was just blowing off some amateur who uses BC. I responded by asking if the price would be half if I did not send them a BC file, expecting no reply, or maybe a 'don't bother me again' reply. He did respond, and even said "I have bobcad, I use it on some things and it works fine. Sometimes better than the software I paid 25,000.00 for".

I was pretty apprehensive about buying BC after some of the critical posts out there, but the more I use it, the happier I am with it.