[hockeyguy]

this may be long and drawn out, but hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. i will start with the back info.

my father has owned his machine shop for 15-30 years. he is mostly always busy, but it is very small. he is the only one who works there besides myself, and i just started working with him a lot for now since i quit my job and am waiting to go into the military. i started with him ever since i was 10ish, i would just sweep up for him and stuff, and i have been operating the machines for the past 10 years or so (im 24 now). i was in college (unrelated to the field) so i wasn't working there a while, so never got fully trained to design programs etc. i am at the point now where i can make edits to programs when needed, and can make basic programs (drill holes, make straight cuts) on the CNC lathe and CNC miller, all just from watching him do it over the years.

the thing different about this shop, is it was never brought to its full potential. by this i mean his "office" is a desk near the wall, right next to the machines. the shop is just one square building, with the 2 CNC machines, 6-7 benches, and smaller machines around such as grinders, sanders, sand blaster, etc. he has a few good customers that he has had for years, and makes good money and he is happy with that. what we mostly do for jobs is smaller piece amounts, such as one offs that no one else in the area can do, and a few returning jobs that hes had for a while, that while they only have a couple hundred pieces they take a couple weeks because of all the work, and they are recurring every month or so.

so what i am interested in, is how does one "build" a business. the customers are there (albeit a few) but i think we should grow. im honestly not even sure how to ask the question, hopefully you guys will understand what i am trying to convey.

[CaptainVee]

I think that is a very good base to build on!

For two reasons:
- He is making good money
- You have watched him do his thing for a very long time

You say you SHOULD grow. That can be true but it is not always needed. There is merit in being small, especially if you already have have a well running business.

The thing with growing is that you would need a different kind of customer. The bigger you get the bigger the chance another company can do the same but cheaper.

There is a lot to say for being small.
But when you see potential with growing big it is worth looking in to.
Just do not try to grow big just for the sake of being big.

[fizzissist]

My dad started in our garage. He wanted machines to use to work on his cars, so he'd take in a small job to pay for the machine. .. From there, it spiraled out of control, and it wasn't long before he didn't have room in the garage. For many years, he kept a regular job (selling tooling) while the shop ran under a lead guy he'd hired. Not long thereafter the shop was moved into a 3500sq ft building, and finally dad went full time in the shop.

A strong work ethic and good customer skills were key, along with careful bidding and ... dragging his kid into the shop whether he wanted to be there or not. ... Yeah, I started out sweeping the floor, cleaning machines, then sitting at a drill press, then sharpening drills, then.... and so on.

It wasn't till dad was long out of the picture when we got our first CNC. .. 'nuther story...

If you've got a good customer base, keep it as a cherished but perishable gift. Work hard, make good parts for a fair price.... and when the customer needs them, and you'll do fine.

[hockeyguy]

Thanks for the replies guys, helpful info and I appreciate it. The reason why I say grow the business is as follows. Like I mentioned, it is just us working here right now. My dads runs a great business, he works hard and does amazing work, but not all the time. What I mean by that is he only works when he needs to. Not putting him downs obviously, he deserves the rest, I'm talking about how an average work week is 25-30 hours, just enough to do the jobs. It's the other aspect of business I want to branch out in, getting new customers and more work so it's enough to work 40+, and maybe hire 1 or 2 others way down the road.

As far as the customers go, there is one main customer who has been givin my dad work for the past 20 years or so. He is close to 80 now I believe ad I woul assume be calling it quits soon. I would think the company would keep using us, I would think so anyways. The others are other small businesses that hear about us from others who can't do the jobs and refer them here. So my question as far as this goes is how do you advertise? Putting an ad in the paper seems awkward for a machine shop, do you go to local businesses and introduce yourself just so they know your available?

As far as machines go, I think I "got lucky" here, all we have is CNC, a XYZ axis miller and 6 tool holder CNC late, so no manual stuff thankfully.

And lastly what's with bidding, how do you get involved in that I thought that was like government type contracts that I hear my friends who do plumbing and what not talk about.

[txcncman]

You need to look at profitability, not number of hours worked. If your dad is paying all his bills, paying you a decent wage for your work and still has a little left over to put into a retirement fund, he does not need to work any harder. If you are wanting more for yourself, then work out a deal with your dad so that any new work/customers that you bring in, you get a larger cut.

[Kevin45]

It's not hard to grow a SHOP. What would be hard is finding the time to do the work when you got it.
What you need to do is sit down and talk to dad. If you are going to be going into the military, then there is no use having the conversation. But if you are not going into the military, and you see yourself running this shop in a few years, you are either going to have to hire someone to make phone calls for you, search the 'net, and run ads in the local newpaper. If you think that you can do that plus run machines, then go ahead, but you'll be cutting your hours very short. If you know someone that can build you up a website, then go with that as a digital format gets quite a bit of traffic. Advertise in some smaller magazines. Have a sign put out by the road if you do not have one already. Then speak with a tax person about running your own business. You need to have a business account set up and keep it separate from your home account. There is a lot involved other than just making parts. I've saw a lot of companies start up and fail within six months. I've saw other companies start out in a garage and now have over a 50,000sq.ft. shop and plan on expanding again. One thing though, a lot of companies won't deal with a business that isn't ISO Certified, so that right there may keep you from getting government contracts.

If you start out in a business just wanting to make some good money, maybe hire a person or two, you can let the business grow by itself. You'll know when to expand. But if you have the great idea that you are going to have a large business, a lot of employees, and you see yourself setting behind a large desk talking on the phone all day and a Ferrari sitting out in the parking lot, you'll fail before you know it. You can't have that mindset. A lot of those guys are in debt so far they'll never get out.

For starters, what equipment do you have? You say that you have a couple of CNC's but no manual equipment other than grinders, sanders, and sandblaster. What type of CNC's do you have. Is it a CNC Mill and a CNC Turning Center, or just 2 CNC Mills? Do you have a lathe? What about a larger wet grinder. Do you have an OD grinder? You don't have to have a lot of equipment to have a decent shop, but you need the equipment to do decent work.

Before I retired on Medical, I was the Leadman in the Toolroom. I have been a Tool & Die Maker for 30+ years along with being a Tool Designer. Our Toolroom was small. We had one 3 axis CNC Mill, (2) 2 Axis mills, a small Hardinge Speed Lathe, A Leblond lathe, (1) OD grinder, (1) Kent wet grinder, (1) small surface grinder, plus all of the necessary gages needed for work like that. 3 of us worked in the department and there was nothing that we couldn't turn out. But it takes good people with great work ethics. So if you decide to take over your dads place, first off, dad has to agree. Secondly, if he does agree, then you will need to look at hiring at least (1) person that has design skills and programming skills. They are out there, but you'll need to screen them thoroughly. Next, if you hire someone, you need to look into insurance, not only for the new person, but for you also. I would highly recommend taking a "small business" course from your local college, or at least have a notebook full of questions and talk to someone that is willing to share their experiences with starting a small business. It sounds like a lot, it is a lot, but it isn't really a lot, if you kind of get my meaning. It may sound overwhelming, but for the most part, you're really a part of the way their anyways.

Next thing is charging people. Quite a few of the smaller businesses charge by "time and materials" and not just by the job. You'll need suppliers that you can count on, which I imagine you already know that anyways. With having additional employees you may have to change some things inside of your place now. Fire extinguishers, eye wash stations, safety glass requirements, steel toe shoe requirements. I'm kind of jumping back and forth as things come to mind. Lol!!! :idea: You'll also need someone to do your paperwork. That person could also be your sales rep. for your company. You'll need someone to order materials, keep records of debits and credits, write the checks to suppliers, payroll, and so on.

Other than all the jibberish I gave you above, for starters, post up what equipment that you have now and it may be easier for others to chime in with ideas. Then plan on spending more hours in the shop than you like, because I have a feeling that you'll need a few more pieces of equipment. And don't count on the 80 year old guys business to keep giving you work. Things are way more cut throat than they were a few years ago. Once he's out of the picture, chances are some of the younger ones will shop around to save some money. You have forums like this one, RFQworks.com where people post of their needs, so you can pick up some work there. Almost any machining site, you can get your name out there to others and pick up some extra business this way. You can also hook up with some other machinist to where you could trade services until you get all of the necessary equipment you need.

Good luck in your endeavors. I really hope you make it, and make it big. And that offices that your dad has now, maybe just maybe, you can put a wall around it someday. :cheers:

[hockeyguy]

wow, that was awesome information and i greatly appreciate it.

for our equipment, there is 1 3 axis CNC mill, and 1 2 axis CNC lathe, the lathe has 6 tools on it at a time so it can drill a hole, then index itself and turn down the same piece without having to change everything over. im sure there is an easier name to say that but thats the only way i can explain it as of now. there really isnt much else, besides the sander, with a small grinding wheel on the side, the sandblaster (not used at all), and some very small manual drill presses (couple HP each) the kind you can get at sears for a couple hundred bucks.

when you say you made tools and stuff, what exactly is that.do you mean you were actually making drills, end mills, cutters, etc.? that seems like a lot of extra work when you can just buy them (seem relatively cheep?) and have them sharpened.

as far as my vision for the place, i basically want it to be a good business (like it is) and make a living from it. maybe eventually hiring someone, but nothing huge. of course the big oak desk in a huge office with a lamb outside would be awesome, i know thats not very feasible, but fun to dream about. i know in the past my dad has easily made 100k+, but not that much anymore. fact is he is getting older, and is happy with what he has and is doing.

the way its run right now, i work anywhere from 40-50 hours a week, him around 20. in just the past month since ive been "bookkeeping", i use that term loosely, we have put out about 8-10k worth of parts, and will be finishing another 5k by this friday.

since this is all happening recently, i am starting to show that i can be counted on when it comes to the business, and held accountable to get things done when they need to be. i think that thats a better thing to do as opposed to just saying hey i want to take this over now, what do i do.

[Kevin45]

wow, that was awesome information and i greatly appreciate it.

for our equipment, there is 1 3 axis CNC mill, and 1 2 axis CNC lathe, the lathe has 6 tools on it at a time so it can drill a hole, then index itself and turn down the same piece without having to change everything over. im sure there is an easier name to say that but thats the only way i can explain it as of now. there really isnt much else, besides the sander, with a small grinding wheel on the side, the sandblaster (not used at all), and some very small manual drill presses (couple HP each) the kind you can get at sears for a couple hundred bucks.

when you say you made tools and stuff, what exactly is that.do you mean you were actually making drills, end mills, cutters, etc.? that seems like a lot of extra work when you can just buy them (seem relatively cheep?) and have them sharpened.

as far as my vision for the place, i basically want it to be a good business (like it is) and make a living from it. maybe eventually hiring someone, but nothing huge. of course the big oak desk in a huge office with a lamb outside would be awesome, i know thats not very feasible, but fun to dream about. i know in the past my dad has easily made 100k+, but not that much anymore. fact is he is getting older, and is happy with what he has and is doing.

the way its run right now, i work anywhere from 40-50 hours a week, him around 20. in just the past month since ive been "bookkeeping", i use that term loosely, we have put out about 8-10k worth of parts, and will be finishing another 5k by this friday.

since this is all happening recently, i am starting to show that i can be counted on when it comes to the business, and held accountable to get things done when they need to be. i think that thats a better thing to do as opposed to just saying hey i want to take this over now, what do i do.

When I stated that I made tools, I designed and made tooling to produce production parts. Dies and fixtures. I was the type that was always more comfortable behind a machine than I was a desk, but I was behind the desk on about five occasions. I know that you and your dad run it now, one thing, and I hope your dad would be in agreement with it, is to always be open to new ideas. The technology of machines change everyday, and one needs to stay up with the technology and have the foresight to look ahead in terms of how would a certain machine increase our business, or how would a certain machine cut back on machining time. The more automated a machine is, the more time you have to be doing a secondary job. Shop layout is another. You want to minimize steps. You don't want to do one portion of a job on this side of the shop, then have to walk over to the other side to do a secondary operation. I don't know what sort of products you make. but if you have a sandblaster and don't use it, sell it and trade it for a vibrating tumbler. That way you can throw your parts into the viberdine for deburring instead of manually deburring parts. Do you only make and get by on making 4 or 5 parts a year or do you have a vast array of parts that you make.

Another thing is fixturing. How do you fixture your parts? Do you just chuck them up in a vise and run then, or do you make fixtures to hold different parts. A lot of times, on repeat parts, fixturing makes all the difference in how long it takes to make something. If this was change on a fixture, and that changed, it may possibly just cut out some operations and also machine time.

Do you buy your stock as needed or do you keep some stock on hand?

What sort of checking equipment do you have? Can you check parts to the .0001, can you hold hole sizes to +/-.0001, height gages, pin gages, surface plates, micrometers, bore gages?

When you advertise that you have a shop, and you can look at many others online, they may just be working out of a garage, but presentation makes all the difference. When you look at other shops online they tell you what they have in the way of machines, how many of each, the names, the inspection equipment, and so on. A good presentation makes a huge difference over something like you stated.

for our equipment, there is 1 3 axis CNC mill, and 1 2 axis CNC lathe, the lathe has 6 tools on it at a time so it can drill a hole, then index itself and turn down the same piece without having to change everything over. im sure there is an easier name to say that but thats the only way i can explain it as of now.

Learn the proper name of the machine(s) and brag them up that way. And don't take it wrong, I'm not knocking on you, but if you were looking for some work to do for someone, and you tell them that you have a CNC lathe that can drill a hole and index itself, you are not going to get that guys business. If you say something like.....we have a 15 horse Puma turning center that has 6 position tooling capabilities, or something along that line, it just sound a little more professional and it reflects more on you and your knowledge than what the machine can do. You have to know what you have to be able to sell it and yourself. If you have a CAD/CAM package that you work with, let them know what you use. Don't tell a person that you just scratch it out on paper and program by hand. I don't know if you DO use a CAD/CAM package, but if you don't, you need to look into one. Gibbs Cam, BobCad/Cam, or something as there are quite a few out there. You don't want to spend hours manually programming a machine, when you can spend it drawing it up and send it directly to the machine. Like they say, time is money, and the less time you spend doing something, the more time you have to get in some new work, and that is what makes money.

Maybe someday you can have that Lambo or Ferrari setting out front :cheers:

[fizzissist]

Maybe someday you can have that Lambo or Ferrari setting out front :cheers:

Or... Like a friend of mine who has 2 Piper Aerostars and a Cessna 182 sitting next to his shop, at the end of the runway...And his son is in the process of taking over the business.