[ihavenofish]

would the kflop and kanalog kit work and give good performance on an old maho cnc mill?

drive details:
- philips glass scales on xyz. these are none standard signals, not the same as heidenhain models.
- heidenhain high resolution rotary encoder on the rotary table.
- heidenhain encoder on the spindle.

- xyzb servos are indramat AC with resolvers. the drives are analogue.
- spindle motor will be changed to a simple 6000rpm AC unit with sensorless vector vfd drive.

my main concern would be precision and dynamics. the machine as stock goes 600ipm with very high acceleration. id like to maintain at least 0.0005" absolute precision with no issues of overshooting, bounce, etc and still have around 0.5G acceleration at 600ipm.

theres also a ton of mechanical accessories on this machine.
- hydraulic brake on the rotary table
- 48 tool atc with servo driven carousel and hydraulic changer arm
- hydraulic drawbar
- hydraulic spindle orientation (weird)
- hydraulic pallet changer
- air powered pallet door
- renishaw probe
- tool break detection camera
- 5 separate coolant systems with valves
- timed way oiler
- timed gear oiler
- spindle gear shifter
- chip conveyor
- main hydraulic pump
- safety sensors everywhere
- many more ive forgotten.

so for those who have used this board a bit, and especially those who have used it on an industrial level machine, does this look like a task the kflop is up to?

thanks in advance

[TomKerekes]

Hi ihavenofish,

You don't have any information on the glass scales or the Drives?

If the scales don't put out digital quadrature they would be difficult to interface.

If the Drives/Motors/Resolvers accept analog speed command and have good velocity control then they might be useable. Otherwise you would need to upgrade them.

Regards

[Al_The_Man]

What is the present controller, I am assuming the Philips scales go back to the controller and not the drives?
Or where do they return to?
Heidenhain anything, you are lucky if you get TTL differential, they are often 2v p-p or 11µa sine wave.
The part number on the encoders would reveal it.
For all the I/O it may be more efficient to do what the original CNC systems did and I have also done in some controls, is to hand over the majority of the functions to an outboard PLC, this has the advantage of taking the burden off of the CNC side and also all the I/O is conditioned, 24vdc in, relay out if needed?

[ihavenofish]

ill try to supply more info when i get home.
this machine is from 1987. one of the first mahos with AC servos.

the original control is a philips 432. the linear scales and 4th axis encoder all route back to the control. ive been told by heidenhain that the scales used in the 80's are not compatible with new heidenhain stuff. beyond that i know very litte. ill try to find some details tonight. the rotary encoder is amazingly a product still made however, so i can get the spec sheet.

the motors and drives are common and were made well into the late 90's, i should be able to find a spec. they are huge - 7.5kw 3000rpm for the Z! this was their highest performing machine at the time. ive had it moving and its insane. its completely on par with anything new mechanically - its only the PC control thats obsolete. the main reason for considering this upgrade is to improve contouring performance, allow long programs, get 4 axis coordination, and make future repairs and troubleshooting easier.

id prefer not to buy new drives or new scales, as they cost quite alot, and i know mine are working (except the spindle). maybe the philips signal could be translated.

i dont know if this machine has an external PLC. its got a pile of IO on the control, and a ton of relays that seem to trace back to them.

ill get back with more in a few hours
thanks

[ihavenofish]

heres a collection of pics from when i was cleaning it if your bored
Index of /maho/images/random

[TomKerekes]

Heh heh. This is my favorite picture:

http://polarguitars.com/maho/images/random/IMG_6268.jpg

Which shows a Intel 8088 used to control that monster.

Much less than a 1Mips processor vs 1.2GFLOPS for KFLOP. How they did what they did amazes me.

We do have Modbus examples now for KFLOP which could map a ton of I/O into KFLOP's Virtual IO. So that might be the way to go with all the I/O you have.

KFLOP+Kanalog can potentially accept sine/cosine glass scale voltages if you can locate them. But since sampling only occurs at 11.1KHz it can only accept signal frequencies up to around 2.5KHz which wouldn't probably handle the speeds you are discussing if they are 20um/cycle scales.

Good luck on what you find out.

Regards

[ihavenofish]

intel 8088 8mhz, 96k memory. top of the line man! kinda shows how trivial basic cnc operation is - and how little its changed. it even has constant velocity mode. if you could stuff in a 100mhz cpu and 1gb ram, there probably wouldnt be any reason to upgrade it at all.

ok, got the electrical manual in front of me.

servo drives | motors are:
X - indramat TDM 1.2-50-300-w1 | MAC112A-0-LD-/130-0
Z - indramat TDM 1.2-50-300-w1 | MAC112A-0-LD-/130-0
Y - (vertical) indramat TDM 1.2-100-300-w1 with brake i think | MAC112C-0-ED-/130-1/000
B - indramat TDM 1.2-30-300-w0 | MAC90A-0-RD
http://www.pennineuk.com/library/pdf...ttdmdrives.pdf
that makes it seem like its +- 15v input for speed control, with a tacho and a programmed module that tunes the system (already tuned for my machine). so the kflop would need to keep track of the absolute position on the linear scale and just control the speed tightly along its acceleration curve, not really worrying too much about tuning.

spindle motor is 2G 1115 IR-83-3303 H2 B033
dc motor, likely wont keep as the drive is having issues and costs a fortune to replace.

B axis encoder is a heidenhain ROD 270
http://www.atechauthority.com/pdf/An...10.pdf#page=38
180000 count ttl if i read right. i dont know if the new one in the pdf is different than the old.

spindle shaft encoder is a heidenhain ROD 426-81 360
http://www.atechauthority.com/pdf/Rotary_Prod.pdf
360 count ttl it seems. info again is new, no idea if they changed it.

glass scales are philips, no furthur information on part number.

the 2 blocks of IO on the controller state 24v operation. these mostly control relays.

ill see if i can find more on the scales

[ihavenofish]

more things ive found

there 116 pins in use on 2 IO boards. eep. about 1/2 in, 1/2 out. i think they are all 24v. these dont include the feedback devices, the probe, and a few other things. theres defintiely no external PLC. everything ties back to the main control.

theres a spindle input that takes in the rod426 encoder. it states 5v, so i think the manual calling it TTL is right.

seems the spindle drive takes 0-10v for control.

the 3 philips scales are PE 2480/30 models connecting back to the control. no voltages listed. does state it has a reference point (home), so i assume they are incremental. still have no other info.

rod270 for the B axis goes back to the control. it states 5v, so i think the manual calling it TTL is right.

[ihavenofish]

trying to translate this from dutch...
http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra1/afstversl/E/357633.pdf

fun, ha!

this paper describes the scales made after mine - 1988 - which are similar.

so far it seems that the pitch of the scale is 635 microns creating a sine wave, with the signal being interpolated to a precision of 0.5 microns by the control. they used a 10mhz sample frequency.

thats as much as ive figured out.

[ihavenofish]

so on the drives, readin gmore it seems they are 0-10v for control.

theres a power supply that takes in 220v 3 phase and turns it to 300vdc. the 4 drives are connected by a bus bar, so they actually run on dc. didnt know that. there is also a regenrative resistor (bleeder) on the dc bus.

so i think at a basic level, the kflop shoud control those. need to work out the scales.

i think my idea at the moment will be to pull everything apart and clean and repaint. then basically reassemble everything one system at a time, starting with the xyza drives.

[ihavenofish]

alrighty. so basically, its plausible to translate the scales, but might be more effort than its worth. new scales of a more useful nature can be had for a few grand.

i am getting a kflop for my xzero router next friday. ill get that set up, and then use that experience to decide how to proceed on the big mill.

should be fun :x

[ihavenofish]

soooo, can anyone please tell me what i need to order to get this kflop running on my router?

i have 3 parker stepper drives that
3 inductive limit switches

later on there will be a VFD for the spindle.

obviously i need a kflop, but are there any connectors and cables specific to it that i will need?

[TomKerekes]

You would need to provide specs and information on your drives and VFD. But basically KFLOP has standard 0.1 inch IDC Ribbon cable connectors for most of its IO. Winford.com sells basic connectors, ribbon cable, and terminal breakouts.

Regards

[ihavenofish]

drive
http://divapps.parker.com/divapps/em...23_ESeries.pdf

vfd
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/em/d..._manual_en.pdf (2hp model 1 phase 220v)

thanks

[TomKerekes]

Looks like those drives require a 200us setup time on direction whenever the direction changes before the first step. KFLOP only provides 4us.

Looks like the VFD requires an analog input.

Regards

[ihavenofish]

so youre saying the kflop wont work with them?

[TomKerekes]

That is correct.

[ihavenofish]

well thats crap. back to mach3.

[ihavenofish]

just glancing at the gecko drives.. noticed they ALSO use 200us setup times.
http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive...ives/g540.html
http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive...ves/g203v.html

has anyone ever used the kflop with geckos? are they not compatible?

too late now, i just bought all the rest of the parts to get my machine running. no kflop for me.

[TomKerekes]

Geckos work fine with KFLOP. Glance again. ns vs us. What is a little 3 orders of magnitude among friends...

regards