[hacker7]

NEED HELP!!! OK I have been ask to bid on these things. They are for a theme park here in Florida. I normally charge $1.00 a minute for CNC work. But I really don't know where to start on these . Everything you see here would be build from scratch. I'm pricing LABOR ONLY. That would mean me building from scratch what you see, CNC work and all.What would be the normal rate for this? Where would I start at to even price this stuff. Any info would be great! Thanks

Richard

[txcncman]

In my opinion, $1.00 per minute, or $60.00 per hour is a very reasonable price. But to be in business and make a living and stay in business, you have to charge for more than just the actual machining time. There are other factors to consider such as time to change out tools, time to order and procure materials, time for hand operations, time for packing for shipment, cost of packing materials, etc. Getting all the approximate answers before hand is what many call process engineering. So, for each item, write out some numbers for all of the factors mentioned above and any others you can think of to get an idea of how much work you really will be putting into each item. Then calculate the cost and do a reality check and see if the price you want to charge seems reasonable.

[fizzissist]

Keep in mind too that the hourly rate on a $50,000 CNC machine is way different than the justifiable hourly rate on a $200,000 CNC machine.

$60/hr is very reasonable for CNC work. In fact it's not much more than a lot of shops charge for manual time. Rates I'm seeing range from $85 to $115/hr, depending on what machine it runs on. .... Of course, just because you stick the job on a big machine doesn't mean you can charge big machine rates.

There's also jobs that can run lights-out which means you can justify charging a lower rate than normal, but you still gotta make payments and overhead.

[hacker7]

Thanks guy's for the info. The 3pc's you see that are Dark in color with the monkey's on them are 3D work. I was told the last guy charged $100.00 for the set of 3 to be done. Well you have to do one side flip it over to do the other side.they are chair back's. I have to build the chair also to put the back's in. $100 seems to cheap to me. My machine say's 3hrs per pc using a 1/4" rough cutter and finishing with a 1/8" ball mill at 250ipm. On a different note say a person brings YOU these thing's and says I need a bid on you building these from scratch. What would YOU charge............. Well what would you charge? Just trying to get a starting point really. Also I would get a setup fee to get a file made for the CNC work. Most people would say what's your shop rate and then price it according to that. Well if that's the case, at that rate you would never get a job. My overhead for my small 35x50 shop runs $1000 a month. And the reason I even opened it was because I got laid off about a year ago. And actually been doing pretty good. The real problem is pricing TIME.

Thanks Richard

[txcncman]

The other guy might have only charged $100 to do the work. Or, maybe you were lied to. Does not matter really. Bid your bid and let the chips fall.

Ok, some real numbers. You say your overhead is $1000 per month. I would bet it is higher. Do you want to work more than 40 hours per week? Most people don't. So, to break even on your $1000 per month, 40 hours per week, 4 weeks per month, take $1000 divided by 160. This means you only need to effectively make $6.25 per hour. Now, add to that your take home pay. And all of that is based on the ideal that you will have 40 hours per work to do every single week of the year.

Now for me, and except for a couple of computers, I don't own or run any equipment, my overhead is about the same $1000 per month. My minimum pay is about another $2800 per month. So, $3800 divided by 160 is $23.75. That is my break even point. But I am in business to make a profit, not break even. I probably only average about 25-30 billable hours each week. That takes my hourly rate up to $38.00 per hour, just to break even. The rest of the time is spent on sales calls, tweaking post processors, modifying previous work from previous programming (call it warranty work - I include one major rewrite for programs as a selling point to customers - so, if they change a tool or move the job to a different machine, they are covered).

Oh, for actual machining time of each piece, experience and your software should give you an idea of how long each should take. I would guess 2 to 4 hours using a 1/4" ball mill and 0.025" step overs. Sorry, can't be more specific than that.

[victorofga]

be honest with customer.. your hourly rate 60 per hour..
from blueprint..

do you have blueprint about these works?
if not someone need to make the blueprints, or files.. thats additional cost..
if designed 5 min, then 5 min labor
iif designed a day long then 1 day labor additional..

dont forget even you have ready files, models, or vectorlayouts, still you have toolpathing, what will be included in your 60 dollar per hour..

to making a model like that bench possible around a hour..
lay out good vectors for those patterns will takes additional hours..
from here, your decision what you charge for deigning hours..
but the 60/hour remain for toolpathing and machining only..


particularly this work..
about that monkey..

first make very equal rectangles
make v bit cuts
piercing, or cut out the inner openings..

sand it with a type of brush from 3M.. and that will round off edges..
if you start to cut 3d on this work youll ending up with 10 dollar per hour

i think it is called ""rotary bristle""
straws sticking out radially of a shaft.. with that you get very close ..

time could be down to 10-15 min per piece..


i f that way dont work, then only affordable way is buying 2-3 carvewrigth, i think that could cut 2-3 of them at time.. and let it go..possible 2 carvewrigth can make about 6-8 pieces hourly..

[victorofga]

i knew i saw this work before..
you posed it on another forum before a half of years ago..

and you was told the only reasonable way the vcarving.. i checked my old harddrive and i found some test.. its about 15 min per piece to vcarving and piercing..

counting on rough sawn board,

cut edges
plane 4 side
cut length and tenon with double sawblade on a shaper and tablesaw

it all takes about 25 min per board.. i dont know how much could be the sanding, to round edges

also about price this work can be done with a simpe home made router.. same time.. so you also can count on when pricing a work..


preview is as it could looking after router work..

looks it can be done 90 min the 3 board set..


other side of this job, if you count on 9 hour with your shoprate.. no one will buy this.. that chair with additional work and finishing could cost 1500=2000 and knowing how much factories making chairs, this dont looks affordable for 2000 with the customer eye..
that pending on the wood you use..

[hacker7]

Yes you are correct Victorofga. It was awhile ago. Now the customer want's it ASAP. That's the nature of the business.My machine using Vectric Cut3D is telling me 3.3hrs per pc. I have 3 per chair. Now keep in mind this will be my 2nd pc ever cutting 3D,so there may be some tricks to this to speed up the time. If so please fill me in . I truly don't see doing this with a normal handheld router. Not saying it CAN'T be done just seems like it would take even longer than doing on the CNC. Let me ask you guys this, could you make money at 300.00 ea. Not including the seat or paint. That's done by someone other than me.25 at a time.........

Richard

[victorofga]

you have to make vcarving toolpath
no 3d...
vcarving shows for vbit about 4-5 min and cutouts shows about 8 min.. i calculated with 4 mm bit and 2mm per pass sure dont break it..

what 3 hour of vcarving?
15 min.. not 3 hour.. no cut3d
vcarving..previev shows...

vcarving when vbit going between two vector.. and as vectors width changing bit get deeper or shallower..

i think you didnt read i wrote...
you DO NOT use cut3d in this work..

this is what others tried to pointing you out..

if you using a not proper unefficient method, customer will not pay for.. the cncwork costly.. but only in case when it is very efficient...

for 100 chair worth to make a setup
for ten chair you calculate invidual time..

if you want anyway cut 3d method get carvewrigth machine and cut.. set on your backyard that noise dont bother and put in 10 feet long boards
and forget all day long.. it works itself....

[hacker7]

Ok I'm posting more detailed pics. I truly don't believe you can do this kind of
detail with V carve. I'm trying to acheive the hand carved look. The angle of the V bit will not allow you to create this. It doesn't matter what angle bit you use.
I have V carve pro also,I understand that It CAN be done with this program but not the way my customer is wanting the hand cut look. Unless I'm totally missing something here. Please educate me if so.

Rich

[Lord Maximus]

I am looking to start doing work once I build a machine (and a shop to put it in) so Im not entirely versed on what charges should be. Tucson has what seems a pirate market for stuff like this so there is no set structure out here, and not much competition. If you are home based, 60.00 /hour is fair. Depending on your market you can charge a 100.00 turn on fee with that. Ad a bit-change fee of 25.00/job and depending on what's located around you, you could do pretty well I would think by charging whatever you want.

[victorofga]

look, you have the choice you take it for 100 the 3 pieces, or dont take..

that picture i posted that is a toolpath preview.. that is as part looking for after v-carving, and that is very close your customer wants..
all need some sanding, easing on edges... and it becomes almost same....


the 3d carving you try to push is not affordable for this method... unless you using several machines ...as i said carvewrigth makes at least 4 at time..for that you also can not count 60 per hour..

cnc means someone operate a carvewrigth and means someone makes an engine head tuning with a five axis machine..its not same

you have to look for a woodworking forum folks can use effectively chisel..

and again, i worked with wood, i know after the vcarving need that sander i said.. bristle..

well on the end you can make a few cuts with a chisel yet if you want.. but cnc router this is the way..

if you can buy a fully carved chair in a furniture store for 300 dont expct folks will give you thoushands because you cant make it under a reasonable time... this is not an invidual work.. very possible that company can keep you busy, so would be more reasonable to looking for how you CAN DO, and not looking for why you CAN NOT...

[ger21]

Let me ask you guys this, could you make money at 300.00 ea

Not as much as I'd like to make. Is the lumber included in that price? If so, how much will the material costs be? $300 isn't much even if it was for labor only. Chairs are not easy to make. Do you need to make jigs and/or fixtures?

I think that the only way to do that in a reasonable time and still achieve the hand carved look would be with a combination of 2D and 3D toolpaths. Using something like Aspire, only use 3D on the surfaces that can't be V-carved. You'd probably need to do 2-3 toolchanges, but your cutting time shoud be reduced by about 75%. You'll need to really know what your doing, and I'd expect to spend about 20 hours programming and tweaking the code to optimize cutting time.

Now, ask yourself, even if it was a basic chair with no CNC work. Can you build a chair in 5 hours, starting with rough lumber? By doing 25 at a time, you might save an hour/chair, so that gives you 4 hours. My guess is no. And keep in mind that is labor only, with no profit margin. If you want to turn a decent profit, you have to do it even faster. Now, add all the machine work, programming and setup time. My guess is you'll have 25% of your allotted time spent before you even touch the wood.

Those chairs are most likely made in some other country where the total labor cost/chair is about $25.

[txcncman]

Those chairs are most likely made in some other country where the total labor cost/chair is about $25.

My guess is hand carved in Mexico.

[BAMCNC.COM]

CNC it, then do some hand work to make it look done by hand.

[hacker7]

You guys are right they can buy the chair from a place in Africa. I've acquired
the STL files today where it was made by the other guy. I may just pass this up. I don't want to get a bad rep of being too low on price. As TXCNCMAN put it " let the chips fall where they fall".

I'm not desperate for it by no means. I just know more stuff is coming down the line like this because in the spring they like to spend money!!! And ger21 I was wanting you to chime in, Thanks. Here is some pics of what I finished for the same theme park. GOOD MONEY!!!!!!! Thanks Alot you guys for your honest opinions.

Rich

[hacker7]

Almost forgot, those are made out of mahogany. 20 at a time .

[victorofga]

migthbe this is the way..
the startpoint that you want to fully cut with cnc that is where you misleaded..
i have really doubt you made chairs before..

in this country i didnt made this type, but back in 2002 i made another type.. derivated of one single photo..
reason i made because the owner wanted more sturdy than the one from stores..

it also wider, and back is taller than standard..
i made them of cypress .. the photo shows the last year state,, they are aways out on the yard..
true i was employee not on my own.. i made all furniture for his house..

not arguing on, but sometime not really looking on jobs what and how affordable..
i just really hoping that company wont outsource another jobs leaving you without job..

[harryn]

If they are in a hurry, then they are willing to pay the local rates. It might be possible to buy them for $ 100 in another country (although I am not so sure) but certainly it will cost them a bit to ship and import them.

To me, it makes sense to bid as if you had to send the job out to be made by someone else. Suppose you took the chair example, and then needed to send it to txcncman for drawings and gcode ? What would that cost ? This you can guess or maybe he can tell you.

Then, taking this gcode, what would it cost you to have someone else make them ? It is hard to imagine it can be done for less than $ 3 - 400 each in a small qty.

If you are just in general trying to estimate your pricing for projects, then some simple guidelines might help:
- Drawing something like this and making it into gcode - 4 hours
- Chasing down information - 4 hours
- Chasing down wood - 4 hours
- Setting up machine - 4 hours
- Running job - X hours
- Assembly - 4 hours
- Finish - 4 hours

How good are my numbers ? good question. Better than no information.

Does it really matter if the work is your time vs your machine ? IMHO, not so much.

[harryn]

Since you have an original, I wonder if it would be faster to use a pantograph than to make the cnc files ?