[juneminuse]

Hi all,

Looking to start a small shop but confused over UL certification. How to go about getting one, what are the costs, and are there any building/production area requirements. Also if it's important to get one at all. Thanks in advance for all the help.:wave:

[DM007]

Hi! I have been going through this in Canada and it's a nightmare. I put out 2 RFQs on Alibaba.com. The first was too general, the revised version had detailed specifications. That did not make much difference to many of them as they still wanted to engage in long discussions on the desired specs. I simply stated that the details were in the RFQ, please reread it carefully. I was talking to 24 Chinese factories. Some with no UL, cUL, cRUus or CSA certification on parts or machine, but they kept me talking and negotiating for 3-4 weeks in some cases. Initially they say, no problem, we can do this, but as the negotiations progress, they eventually tell you that they only have CE or CCC and ask if that will do. The arguments all of the time are that they are a major manufacturer and that their machines are of high quality and are safe. I had to explain the legal need for UL, etc. certification in a business environment to them in Canada. I had already talked to my provincial safety agency and to the CSA office and so knew the law on this. I also talked to my insurance company and they admitted that if non-compliant machinery was in use in a business space, there was a possibility of them voiding the claim in the event of an accident, Again, I had to tell the Chinese factories about this liability issue and it took some explaining before they understood this point. UL//CSA testing is an enhanced testing process. It is better than CE, CB, CCC, etc and allows the export factories who are willing to pay for such testing to legally export to North America and have businesses buy their machines. Small machines for hobby use are a different matter, there CE/FDA may be acceptable. You need to check your local laws about machines in business use and certification. The UL site and its search engine are a marvel. Talk to your insurance company too. Next issue: is voltage and phase. 220V 1 PH is typical in small workshops, but 220/440V 3 PH is more common in industrial production lines. It is possible to use a phase converter to convert one to the other, so find out about this early on. Accessories: Make sure that you include all of these in any RFQ and that any quotes include them in the price. Make sure that you get exactly what you want, not what they want to sell you. Many will not bother to read the RFQ properly. I recommend that you start the RFQ with something like the following in large bold underlined letters: All parts and machinery must be UL certified. If you cannot supply UL certified machines, please do not contact me! You will still get the used car salesmen who will try the hard sell or the women who will lead you along. This means that you must reiterate this in the first communication with them. If you get to the final quote stage, rewrite it yourself with every single aspect of the machines configuration and certification including the accessories included on that copy. If they remove something when they send it back to you as their official copy, beware! Everything must be explicitly stated. You have the option to get an inspection agency to look at the machine at 3 stages up to the point of loading. It's worthwhile having this peace of mind. I have heard of attempted fraud using uncertified parts or buying fake stickers. An inspection agency should flag this and will be able to help you sort this out if you find that the factory has taken some "short cuts". There is one other option worth considering, which is retrofitting the machine with certified parts and getting the inspection yourself. The problems that some factories face is that their parts suppliers only have access to the Chinese parts catalogues, not the global catalogues. This means that they may not be able to find the certified parts that you require. It is not impossible to get these parts, but they have to be prepared to find a service that can source them if you cannot. At least you will learn about the machine and get what you want. There are some useful pages on the web about the Chinese supplier/buyer relationship. I suggest that you google them.

N. American resellers: Here in Canada it is illegal to connect a non-compliant machine to the electrical supply. For this reason, resellers of non-compliant machinery are only permitted to sell that machinery for hobby use. I talked to 2 in Canada by phone and visited 2 local tool shops. You will keep getting the statement that no one has had any problems so far. Ditch these people pdq. The resellers are selling machines illegally for use in business here. Some on this forum have had to retrofit machines sold for this purpose at their own cost or face fines and jail time. The resellers will tell you that it is OK if you are just using this machine yourself and not reselling it. But what if your business grows and you hire someone to run the machine and they get hurt. You need to check very carefully on this point, otherwise it's instant bankruptcy, fines and jail time down the road! Some knowledgeable resellers will offer 2 options: a machine in which all the parts are properly certified, but the machine is not and an option to have the whole machine certified at extra cost. The latter may be worthwhile, but check the costs for inspection independently first.

Lastly, I am glad to say that I am nearly at the end of my negotiations for 2 properly certified machines for business use. I deliberately set the time for final bids 4-6 weeks from the initial RFQ with a decision to buy 4 weeks after that. Here in the Great White North, we still have 2 feet of snow on the ground. The soil will be frozen until the end of April and local delivery will not be feasible until mid-May. Take your time. Think hard about what you want in terms of both the mechanical and the electronic configuration of your machine before you buy. Dave

[harryn]

Hi all,

Looking to start a small shop but confused over UL certification. How to go about getting one, what are the costs, and are there any building/production area requirements. Also if it's important to get one at all. Thanks in advance for all the help.:wave:

If your question is "do I need my shop to be UL certified ?", or "Can I set up my shop to produce UL certified goods ?", those are somewhat different questions.

Locally, you can build items and have them ETL / UL / TUV certified by a third party, but it costs a $ 1 - 5 K (depending) and requires paperwork on all of the electrical items in your build.

Often, the best answers will come from the local fire department inspectors, as they are the ones who really are in control of safety in many US communities. Similar to baseball umpires, their word is virtually taken as law, regardless of what is on paper.

[DM007]

Harryn has given you good advice if you go the DIY route. Best make sure that whatever electrical/electronics you buy are UL/CSA/cRUus/TUV/ETL certified. I did look at making my own CNC router from 20 series aluminium extrusions, but wanted a table that would take a 4x8' sheet of plywood and that cost money. The Chinese machines came out to be a better value after adding the extra $$ for finding the certified parts, shipping and the $600-1000 for the inspection. You can find decent clearance prices for ball screws and mechanical parts at online sites, plus some parts ready built on Ebay. Best decide what size bed you want and other specs, price it, then compare with a certified Chinese machine of the same size. I can send you the links to UL/CSA certified Chinese factories if you PM me. You will need to workout shipping, theirs or your own. Make up a budget and try to look for bids that are close. They will deal, but can be a bloody nuisance. It can be like trying to buy a virgin in a middle eastern slave market (no racial slur intended). I have made some friends there by educating the factories to look ahead, because if the trade talks with Canada and the USA do not work out soon, they may find that they cannot import their machines into the N. American market. I have written to our Minister of International Trade in Ottawa and advised him to talk to his US counterpart on this topic. Safety in the work place is the critical issue. Some of their components are not made from non-combustable materials. It follows that in the event of a fire, your business insurance may become void if you use non-compliant machinery. Also, in the US there may be assistance with the cost of equipment for start up companies in the form of grants, not loans. Best check your state and federal govt web sites and contact the small business association for help and advice.