[etard]

Hey guys, help me try to convince my lovely lady that a mill will pay for itself within a year.:argue:

Doing the math here, let's assume a few things:

1. Production VMC's cost something like $50 an hour to run. Agreed?

2. Production VMC's work 3-4 times faster than Hobby CNC mill with flood coolant and a stock spindle. Is this about right?

3. All arguments should be based on a turnkey Precision Matthews PM45-CNC (less than $6K)

Ok, everybody wants to make widgets, or start a successful Kickstarter campaign making widgets. Say you have a widget that you can make the parts for on the PM45 in 10 hours and clear $200 after material cost etc... Companies are selling these for $250 so your price is considerably cheaper, quality the same, blah, blah, blah.

So you sell 5 a week, it takes you and the machine 50 hours start to posted in the mail, BUT you only had to put 20 hours of your time into the widget. In my mind, that's easy money, right!!?? Those are union wages from the comfort of your home!!! BUT, is it UNREALISTIC??? Maybe you have to put 40 hours into the job yourself, still, not bad extra income. I know from construction that things take twice as long as you expect, and I have wrenched on enough machines to be very familiar with Murphy's Law. I have never ran a CNC, only small projects on manual Bridgeports and Benchmasters, but I am taking the CNC course at the Community College and want to sell off some things to get the PM-45 and make something. I'm just trying to figure out the cost of production, realistic timelines, and realistic profit margins.

Gentlemen, if you have done production on your hobby mill, please post your problems and experiences in terms of the limitations of the machine. Is it your thought that a Hobby mill can compete with job shops on niche market parts? How many hours of production can a hobby mill put out before needing replacement? I guess that's the big question here, how much to calculate for the actual cost of running the mill per hour?

Blow holes in my logic, please! I need something bulletproof to bring to the missus.(nuts)

Thanks for your time...

[DRock]

If you are looking to spend around $6k on a production mill I would highly recommend the Novakon Torus/Pulsar or a Tormach.

Other than that I can't offer much insight as I myself am just getting to the end of my conversion, definitely make sure you get a turnkey machine if you want to make money.

[recordingwhiz]

IF its the 'widget' Im thinking of then the market is rapidly moving in all directions, and will probably be flooded soon.

but then Im probably wrong

[TiagoSantos]

Hopefully it's not another AR15 part or whatever it is

What you're describing CAN happen. It also MAY not happen! If you can't justify spending the money on what could be considered a toy, make sure you have a clear idea of what you want to make with it. Don't buy a CNC machine expecting you'll magically crank out a gizmo that everyone needs/wants just because you have the machine.. You need an idea and a plan! Figure out what you want to make, design it, make sure the machine you're planning to buy is the most adequate, work out the material costs, tooling costs, electricity, etc.

The PM-45 turnkey CNC conversions look pretty good for the price, but depending on what you're making, a Tormach or Novakon might be better suited. Honestly, if I needed something to crank out parts NOW and wanted to make sure I'd have as little downtime as possible, I'd probably buy a Tormach. If I had some parts I could make money on, but they weren't urgent or time critical, I'd probably buy a Novakon. They have the potential to be better, but I'm stiiiiill not quite 100% sure about them, although they have clearly made a lot of improvements lately. And lastly, if I wanted a CNC as a toy (which I do), I'd get the PM-45 turnkey and start messing with it.

How much money you'll make is entirely dependent on your idea and how you put it together..

[ihavenofish]

Blow holes in my logic, please! I need something bulletproof to bring to the missus.(nuts)

find a qualified shop and pay someone to do it. thats the best and most economical way to start up. even the low cost turnkeys like tormachs and novakons will take you ages and thousands of dollars to get tooled up and everything programmed, streamlined.

i make a number of parts on my novakon. some for other people, some that i sell on my own, some purely for myself.

basically, after materials, tools, consumables, etc, if the job isnt making $60 per hour of machine time, its a loss. not surprisingly, most jobs end up near that mark. a handful are closer to $100, but not many. if its under $60, we just turn it down. my novakon spindle blew last week in the middle of a $6000 job. so i spend $1400 for an emergency fix. most of my labour money, forget profit, is all gone now.

add to this, that other people are billing $80-$200/h on their big fancy vmc's that can make the part 12 times faster than you.. and you cant remotely compete on most contracts. even on 1 off prototypes where the labour cost is not a concern, theres rarely a reason to own your own machine.

basically, you buy a hobby grade mill because you WANT one. trying to justify it any other way is fooling yourself - and your wife.

[awerby]

etard wrote:

Doing the math here, let's assume a few things:

1. Production VMC's cost something like $50 an hour to run. Agreed?

[How did you arrive at that figure? It could be less, or it could be a lot more if you break something.]

2. Production VMC's work 3-4 times faster than Hobby CNC mill with flood coolant and a stock spindle. Is this about right?

[Not necessarily. It really depends on which "Hobby CNC" mill you're comparing to what VMC, and what machining operations you need to do. If it's all about "hogging" off material with a big tool, then maybe, but if there's a lot of fine detail which takes small endmills to cut, a "hobby" mill with a faster spindle would do better. ]

3. All arguments should be based on a turnkey Precision Matthews PM45-CNC (less than $6K)

[Is that the "Hobby CNC" or the VMC in your previous statement? Looking at it here Precision Matthews PM45M Bench Top Milling Machine it doesn't look like either one. It's a manual mill, for one thing - turning it into a Hobby CNC mill will be a major retrofit project. Turning it into a VMC (which usually has an automatic toolchanger, for one thing) would be a lot harder. Who's going to do all this - you, or someone else? Have you figured out how much it's going to cost? Have you budgeted for all the miscellaneous software, tooling, fixtures, and measuring equipment you'll need to set up your widget factory?]

Ok, everybody wants to make widgets, or start a successful Kickstarter campaign making widgets. Say you have a widget that you can make the parts for on the PM45 in 10 hours and clear $200 after material cost etc... Companies are selling these for $250 so your price is considerably cheaper, quality the same, blah, blah, blah.

[There's a reason that other companies are selling these items for as much as they do. For one thing, they're trying to make a profit and pay their workers a living wage while also dealing with rent, utilities, tooling and supplies expenses, taxes, insurance, advertising, regulatory compliance, book-keeping, etc. Making money is not the same thing as making widgets. For instance, some outsider (like you, or maybe someone in China) could see this as an opportunity to undercut the competition and come in a lot lower. Suddenly you've got a lot of these on your hands while the price has dropped to, say, $100. It's different from simply being paid so much each to crank these things out.]

So you sell 5 a week, it takes you and the machine 50 hours start to posted in the mail, BUT you only had to put 20 hours of your time into the widget. In my mind, that's easy money, right!!?? Those are union wages from the comfort of your home!!! BUT, is it UNREALISTIC??? Maybe you have to put 40 hours into the job yourself, still, not bad extra income. I know from construction that things take twice as long as you expect, and I have wrenched on enough machines to be very familiar with Murphy's Law. I have never ran a CNC, only small projects on manual Bridgeports and Benchmasters, but I am taking the CNC course at the Community College and want to sell off some things to get the PM-45 and make something. I'm just trying to figure out the cost of production, realistic timelines, and realistic profit margins.

[Everything takes twice as long and costs twice as much as you figure. Murphy always gets the last laugh. But just looking at your figures, it seems pretty thin. To sell 5 of these things a week, what are your costs to do that? Are you advertising someplace, or putting up a website of your own? $200 times 5 is just $1000. Can you support your family on that much a week? What if a few less sell on one particular week, or if your machine breaks down, or you get sick - can you still pay your rent? Are you sure all your neighbors and your city are going to be okay with you conducting "heavy industry" in the comfort of your home?

As for putting a CNC retrofit on the PM-45, that sounds like a possibly fun project for someone with a lot of time, money and a well-equipped shop, but it's a way to spend money, not make it. ]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[jid2]

Don't forget tooling $1500 to $3000, CAD and CAM software $500 to 15,000.

Bandsaw to cut stock.

Finishing equipment - or can you sell them with machine finish.

You don't get to leave your hobby grade machine, programmed by a novice alone to just crank out money for you. You get to stand next to it and make sure you didn't screw up or that the Mach 3 control isn't going to screw up. So you are likely vested in a good chunk of those 10 hours to build each part.

What makes you think you can sell 5 a week, and if so for how long? If that number is just a guess you can also guess that you can sell 10,000 a week, or zero for months at a time. There's no easy answer here, but you can always have someone else make the product for you at zero profit to yourself just to understand the actual market.

[hoss2006]

The pm45 he's talking about is the cnc versions as he said, read carefully.

3. All arguments should be based on a turnkey Precision Matthews PM45-CNC (less than $6K)

PM-45M-CNC
No atc but that's not absolutely necessary for production, people use taigs for production don't they, no atc there.
It's a good base turnkey costing a fraction of some of the others.
If you can make a video of your widgets and go ahead with a kickstarter page you can get the money for your mill and then some up front
so the mrs won't have anything to complain about.
I've seen many successful kickstarters where the goal stated was to earn money for equipment to make the widgets in a timely manner.
Read their suggestions, don't make the goal $ too high, offer good incentives for the pledges, $25 pledge amounts are the most popular but of course go higher if needed,
give realistic dates of delivery, people will wait a long time but if you're late and miss your ship date they get grumpy.
Good luck, Hoss

[ihavenofish]

The pm45 he's talking about is the cnc versions as he said, read carefully.

PM-45M-CNC
No atc but that's not absolutely necessary for production, people use taigs for production don't they, no atc there.
It's a good base turnkey costing a fraction of some of the others.
If you can make a video of your widgets and go ahead with a kickstarter page you can get the money for your mill and then some up front
so the mrs won't have anything to complain about.
I've seen many successful kickstarters where the goal stated was to earn money for equipment to make the widgets in a timely manner.
Read their suggestions, don't make the goal $ too high, offer good incentives for the pledges, $25 pledge amounts are the most popular but of course go higher if needed,
give realistic dates of delivery, people will wait a long time but if you're late and miss your ship date they get grumpy.
Good luck, Hoss

yeah, didnt mean to sound all negative like it cant or shouldnt be done. just was pointing out that its a "want" to have your own hobby level machine, and rarely the fast and easy way to start a business.

if you have the want, time and dedication, you can do some pretty awesome stuff with even the littlest "toy" machine

[etard]

Thanks for all the bullets guys, I am riddled with holes now! LOL No, my widget IS NOT an ar15 "weight" but that's not to say that I wont be making a few of those for friends and family. (wedge)

I would love to have a Tormach, but 10k is a lot more than 6k. If I find I need another mill I will save up and buy the bad boy, but until then I think the PM-45 will have to suffice.

I also have been snatching up a ton of metrology tools of late, so that should not be an extra cost. Tooling will cost money, but seriously, how much can 3 or 4 R8 collets cost? I actually already have those, along with drawers full of cutters and drills etc...

Also, my "widget" will not be on any kind of production time frame, it will be more like I have some free time tonight so I'll whip some up. And no, I won't be paying someone else to watch the machine, that's just ridiculous.

I posted because I want to get a cnc mill, I like machining, but I want to also make some money on the side. I'm not quitting my job either. I just want to make some parts for guys on other forums that don't have access to cnc. If it's a nice part and people like it, I'll make more.

The cost of the software is sure to be an extra expense, that I did not figure in yet. Although, ATM I have access to Mastercam and solidworks at the school.

What I am wanting to know is what is a a reasonable hourly rate for such a machine when you take into consideration the wear and tear and spindle rebuild after xxx hours??

[OHLEMANNR]

A couple years ago I decided I wanted to start production of my part designs (custom motorcycle stuff). I bought a Matsuura VMC with pallet changer, tooling and CAM software. The machine was well used but was actively knocking out parts when I went to look at it on the shop floor. The machine was $6k, tooling was about $2k, and the CAM was $2.5k. It took me about four months to really learn how to write and edit code which in my opinion you need to be able to do before you can effectively setup a machine to run parts. So, since my parts weren't a simple design, it was about six months before I was able to actually start a batch run of my first product. I made 50 sets of handlebar risers for choppers. My total cost in the product including my shops hourly rate, anodizing, and hardware is $48pr and I sell them for $109. The design is unique and very well received but, they have not sold like I expected they would. It's mostly my fault because I refuse to kiss up to the magazine editors and give them all kinds of free stuff. So, I basically have no marketing other than a few press releases, word of mouth, and Ebay.

I am now looking at doing some other products unrelated to the bike industry. I have sold the big Matsuura and I will contract a production shop to make my parts from now on. I am considering a Haas OM-2 Office Mill for prototype development but have no interest in running my own production.

My point here is that things will certainly not go as planned your first time out and as others have said, you cannot come close to matching the production efficency of a large, well tooled shop. My advice is get the machine you want and enjoy using it in the design/prototype process then, when you have a real product, sub it out.

Bob

[recordingwhiz]

If you really want a CNC mill do NOT show your significant other this post.

[wizard]

As to your initial post the cost to run a machine can very wisely, some machines can be charged out at several hundred dollars an hour. Run of the mill vertical mills, obviously come in a bit lower but there are many factors that go into factoring the hourly rate. To put it simply it depends upon the shop.

Aong this line of though I'd reccomend getting into a couple of small business courses. Running a small business is not all milk and honey. Most importantly there is a lot of overhead to factor in even if this is a garage operation.

Thanks for all the bullets guys, I am riddled with holes now! LOL No, my widget IS NOT an ar15 "weight" but that's not to say that I wont be making a few of those for friends and family. (wedge)

It might help to give us a hint.

I would love to have a Tormach, but 10k is a lot more than 6k. If I find I need another mill I will save up and buy the bad boy, but until then I think the PM-45 will have to suffice.

Tormach is marketing two machines right now, one of which is just slightly more that 6K. However look at it this way 10K won't even buy a decent car these days, these machines are literally bargains that won't be this cheap for long.

I also have been snatching up a ton of metrology tools of late, so that should not be an extra cost. Tooling will cost money, but seriously, how much can 3 or 4 R8 collets cost? I actually already have those, along with drawers full of cutters and drills etc...

Ahh yes but do you have the right collets, drills and ect.

Also, my "widget" will not be on any kind of production time frame, it will be more like I have some free time tonight so I'll whip some up. And no, I won't be paying someone else to watch the machine, that's just ridiculous.

If you can't afford to pay somebody to run the machine you don't have much of a business. On the other hand if you buy one of these open machines and hire somebody to run it you may run into OSHA compliance issues. The point here is that if the business is successful you my find you need to hire someone just to keep up. Speaking of which if you aren't about to setup a legitimate business you might as well forget the whole thing.

I posted because I want to get a cnc mill, I like machining, but I want to also make some money on the side. I'm not quitting my job either. I just want to make some parts for guys on other forums that don't have access to cnc. If it's a nice part and people like it, I'll make more.

Yeah sounds rally nice doesn't it? The problem is if you do this you take on a lot of liability especially if you don't incorporate in some manner. You start selling a lot of product without the protection of a corporation and sound insurance you are just asking for trouble.

The cost of the software is sure to be an extra expense, that I did not figure in yet. Although, ATM I have access to Mastercam and solidworks at the school.

Software, Taxes, Insurance, Electricity, Supplies, Materials, Business license, Attorney fees, Maintenance and Repair, Secondary Operations Equipment, Facilities Equipment.

The list above is just a start.

What I am wanting to know is what is a a reasonable hourly rate for such a machine when you take into consideration the wear and tear and spindle rebuild after xxx hours??

That depends upon many factors. The first item to consider is what are your expectations salary wise? If it is $30 dollars an hour, multiply by two to cover taxes and other fees to the government. That would put you at $60 dollars an hour right off the bat. Contrary to popular belief businesses pay a lot in the way of taxes. $30 dollars an hour sounds fat and it might be hard to justify with your limited experience but you don't want to under value yourself in the beginning because raising prices latter can be very difficult. Further $30 an hour barely puts you above the poverty level.

In any event that is wages and taxes, to that base you need to add all of your other expenses, from ash trays to zippers. As you might expect this can add up quick. This is also why businessmen spend so much time looking for good deals and frequent auctions to drive down the costs as opposed to buying from distributors. Most importantly someplace in this mix you need to add in a bit of profit to grow the business and to buy new capital.

In the end you can't really ask us to answer this question, instead you need to come up with a rate that makes sense for your business structure.

The more you look into this and the impact wages have on your ability to compete the more you will realize why big shops often have operators running several machines at onece. Even if you maintain your shop as a one man facility you may find that you need several machine running at once to comfortably pay your wages.

---------------

So what does this mean? I think you need to look at the whole concept taking in a broader view of what is involved in running a business. It isn't impossible as many guts do run a machine shop on the side as a real business while working else where. But note they are doing this as a real business. However to make such a business feasable they have to take in enough business to kept a good amount of income flowing through. This generally means some sort of job shop serving customers that don't need a lot of support. Trying to market your own products while working full time else where while also running you production operations won't be easy.

Frankly running a job shop while working full time elsewhere isn't something a lot of guys can pull off real well. Treat it as a real business though and you might be able to profit a bit. If it isn't a business to you then you will likely end up wasting a lot of money

Beyond all of the advice left above you should always consider used CNC equipment as an alternative to low end junk.

[etard]

Bob,

That is certainly an enlightening story, I can't believe you found a VMC for $6k, you probably did not lose any money on the sale there. One of my ideas will involve motorcycles and I will be making plenty of parts on the mill for myself, which is the foremost reason I want to buy a mill.




recordingwhiz,

Thank you for your wonderous insight. you have opened my mind and my heart, I am moved to tears by your post.




Wizard,

To be clear, I am not starting a business in the sense that I am dependant on the business for income. I will not be "cranking" out parts as I have said, I might on a good week complete 5 gizmos and then maybe not do anything for 3-4 weeks. I appreciate the time and effort you have put into your post, there are many factors to consider indeed. If the things I make become wildly successful and popular, I will then sub the job out to a local shop, but I am not counting on it.




I guess I gave way too much information in my first post that has sidetracked this thread from it's intended purpose which is to find out how much the expected cost of running a hobby mill is in order to find the possible payoff vs. cost of operating the mill. I am only interested in the Precision Matthews at this juncture, if I come up with twice as much money, I will then consider the Tormach. I am buying a CNC mill regardless, so if I don't sell any parts or gadgets made on the mill, nothing lost, nothing gained. This is not a business venture solely dependant on the sale of goods, it is a hobby venture with investment possibilities.


I'm just looking for guys experience with a benchtop mill and a general idea of how much they feel it costs to run.

Thanks.

[jid2]

These mills are cheap to run. Spindle bearings cost between $35 and $300, you need a good shop press to replace them, electronic parts all cost $150 in my experience. So if you blow a motor, or driver, or breakout board or whatever - each costs $150 to replace.

BUT, the PM45 CNC is a total wildcard. Who has one? There are no details on the thing, the description sucks. If you look at the wiring, there is no break-out board and the other components are a guess as well. Read through the Syil, Novakon, Mikini, IH and other Hobby grade machine sections of this forum and see how reliable the machines were during their first few generations. I'll save you the effort. They suck. The PM45 CNC is done completely in China based on the pictures. Quality Machine has often been unable to support manual machines when they have issues, even the main guy says he struggles to keep up with everything sometimes.

Given the finicky nature of Mach 3, hobby grade electronics, and Chinese construction you will spend sometime debugging the thing. It doesn't seem to include a control computer so it's easy for them to say -"it's your problem".

Or it could be sweet.

[hoss2006]

Precision Mathews has MANY happy customers that bought pm25mv, pm30's and pm45's (like yourself) not to mention the lathes he sells.

BUT, the PM45 CNC is a total wildcard. Who has one?

Seeing how it just came out for sale is the reason we haven't, maybe etard will be the first to share.
The webpage does say much more info to come and the 3 year warranty would lessen my worry about getting things fixed if needed.
Someone had to step up and buy the first Tormach.
If I had the room I'd buy the pm45mcnc.
Hoss

[wizard]

I guess my problem with your post is that you seem to be dismissing the liability that you could saddle yourself with if you don't setup a proper business. Once you start selling stuff you take on liability personally if you aren't protected but some form of formal business. You should realize that there are lawyers out there that make the majority if their living off motorcycle accidents.

Bob,

That is certainly an enlightening story, I can't believe you found a VMC for $6k, you probably did not lose any money on the sale there. One of my ideas will involve motorcycles and I will be making plenty of parts on the mill for myself, which is the foremost reason I want to buy a mill.




recordingwhiz,

Thank you for your wonderous insight. you have opened my mind and my heart, I am moved to tears by your post.




Wizard,

To be clear, I am not starting a business in the sense that I am dependant on the business for income. I will not be "cranking" out parts as I have said, I might on a good week complete 5 gizmos and then maybe not do anything for 3-4 weeks. I appreciate the time and effort you have put into your post, there are many factors to consider indeed. If the things I make become wildly successful and popular, I will then sub the job out to a local shop, but I am not counting on it.

I suspect people understand what you are saying and that is what generates the concern. 5 Gizmos a week MIGHT not be enough to sustain a business. I stress might because we don't know what the product is.

I guess I gave way too much information in my first post that has sidetracked this thread from it's intended purpose which is to find out how much the expected cost of running a hobby mill is in order to find the possible payoff vs. cost of operating the mill. I am only interested in the Precision Matthews at this juncture, if I come up with twice as much money, I will then consider the Tormach. I am buying a CNC mill regardless, so if I don't sell any parts or gadgets made on the mill, nothing lost, nothing gained. This is not a business venture solely dependant on the sale of goods, it is a hobby venture with investment possibilities.

The problem is nobody can even guess at the numbers for you. As I said there are many factors.

I can understand the concept of a hobby business but such a business still needs to steel enough of a product to sustain itself.

I'm just looking for guys experience with a benchtop mill and a general idea of how much they feel it costs to run.

Thanks.

Again what good would somebodies answer be, if it doesn't apply to the way you will use the mill. Somebody milling aluminum or plastics may see a huge difference in cost vs somebody machining Super alloys or stainless steels.

[mcphill]

I have to agree with Wizard on one point - if you want to sell product that can in ANY way lead to injury (no matter how "stupid" someone has to be to injure themselves), then set up a business to protect yourself. Depending on the state, this can be easy or hard. In California it is spendy, as you owe minimum sales tax of $350 I think even if you sell NOTHING. This is after their high incorporation fees. In Indiana it was cheap and easy. The most important thing is, if you don't have a company set up, your customers sue YOU, PERSONALLY. All you have is up for the grabbing - house, car, bank accounts, anything. If you incorporate, only the assets of the company are up for the grabbing. If you personally buy the machine, and "rent" it to the business, then the business owns nothing, and all that is up for grabs is... Well, did you buy some materials or something?

[ihavenofish]

If you incorporate, only the assets of the company are up for the grabbing. If you personally buy the machine, and "rent" it to the business, then the business owns nothing, and all that is up for grabs is... Well, did you buy some materials or something?

i hear this spouted alot. its not exactly true. if you cant deliver and bankrupt the corporation, then yes, creditors are SOL for anything past the corporations own assets unless you committed fraud. but in a lawsuit... youre going down no matter how you arrange it. you need some serious insurance for stuff like product failure causing injury or death, corporation or not. just building a few bicycle frames a year will run you near 10k in insurance to cover your ass.

[DareBee]

It is the American way.

In the middle east if you are stupid and cut off your leg - sucks to be you. In North America - guarenteed riches

the system heavily promotes buy from China