[|eric|]

i have been reading online and watching videos about milling and machining stuff out
now i was wondering how the heck can i justify a pcnc 15k investment in a hobby :idea:

i already work 40hrs + a week dont really want to quit work to pay for a mill and i also have to think about my old days ...

why purchase a mill well i many litle and bigger projects id like to take a crack at a new form of turbine, a magnet based motor
some random knicknacks maybe some knifes . (not really into knifes but the ones i have seem not so good/incompleate)

my brother is quite knowledgable in terms of machining and well just about anything really ... so i do have a knowledge base in case i need
( he might also be interested in aquireing one)

so to the point how the heck do you justify spending 15-20 k on a "hobby" how do i finance it ? the mill i would buy would probably be a pcnc 770 or 1100 ( i have looked at others and yes they are cheaper but i dont like the y travel on most and they also dont have neither the support that tormach seam to have nor the options.)

looking as to ways of financing this endavour . i could make knifes like mr grismo or maybe something else but what ?
think i could receive grants for my "research projects" ?

i also have a steep learning curve .

i would also need some materials but that i figure my project would need like 1-2k$ worth . i make about i can put about 5 k a year on the side so getting the money would be a 3-4 year project but i dont want to trow money at it in hopes it magically produces something worth while [that will pay for itself would be nice... ] ( i dont beleive in that kind of instant gratification...)

have you guys /gals had any trouble "paying off" your cnc tools ?

[Winks]

A hobby is something you can afford to do in your spare time. Afford is a key word. Not rocket science here.

[harryn]

One of the great tragedies of life are people that believe they can make enough from a small machining business in their garage to pay for the machine and pay themselves something reasonable as well. It is possible that it could work out, but in most cases, it won't.

I am just like you, I find this hobby fascinating, similar to when I bought a camera in high school to take photos. Eventually I learned that I just like the camera because it was a machine, and that I really lacked artistic talent. Even if I had the talent, only a small number of photographers really make much money.

The same is true of many / most home installed hobby cnc routers and mills. If you don't plan for it to ever make money for you, then your plan will be ok.

As far as financing it, think of it like a second / weekend car.

[aarggh]

What is this "paying off" you speak of?

The short answer is, "a very understanding wife!".

Long answer, if it's something you want to do because you enjoy it, do it for that reason alone and anything else that comes along the way will be a bonus. And quite possibly without even realising it, you might at one point cross that obscure line between hobby and business, and be able to earn enough to support yourself. But, unless you have a very firm and realistic business model, with realistic products you know reasonably well you can sell, to a market you can penetrate, everything else is nothing more than just speculation and optimism.

You mentioned doing knives like John as an example, well there's a very dedicated bloke along with his brother that have spent a great deal of time, and more than a substantial amount of money, very slowly building building a brand while having fun. But like all ventures it's not an overnight success. Just being able to emulate what John has spent a long time to achieve, doesn't mean you'll penetrate any similar market to any significant degree, as an appreciative and loyal fan/userbase is crucial to success. You could try and undercut him on the same product, but when people buy a custom knife, (or anything), they aren't just buying the product, they are also buying the brand.

That kind of success is what happens after a great deal of effort and dedication, very hard to emulate on the spot or build overnight on a shoe string budget.

Spend whatever you want to spend and enjoy it, but be realistic as to short, mid, and long term goals.

cheers, Ian

[allinmach]

i have been reading online and watching videos about milling and machining stuff out
now i was wondering how the heck can i justify a pcnc 15k investment in a hobby :idea:

i already work 40hrs + a week dont really want to quit work to pay for a mill and i also have to think about my old days ...

why purchase a mill well i many litle and bigger projects id like to take a crack at a new form of turbine, a magnet based motor
some random knicknacks maybe some knifes . (not really into knifes but the ones i have seem not so good/incompleate)

my brother is quite knowledgable in terms of machining and well just about anything really ... so i do have a knowledge base in case i need
( he might also be interested in aquireing one)

so to the point how the heck do you justify spending 15-20 k on a "hobby" how do i finance it ? the mill i would buy would probably be a pcnc 770 or 1100 ( i have looked at others and yes they are cheaper but i dont like the y travel on most and they also dont have neither the support that tormach seam to have nor the options.)

looking as to ways of financing this endavour . i could make knifes like mr grismo or maybe something else but what ?
think i could receive grants for my "research projects" ?

i also have a steep learning curve .

i would also need some materials but that i figure my project would need like 1-2k$ worth . i make about i can put about 5 k a year on the side so getting the money would be a 3-4 year project but i dont want to trow money at it in hopes it magically produces something worth while [that will pay for itself would be nice... ] ( i dont beleive in that kind of instant gratification...)

have you guys /gals had any trouble "paying off" your cnc tools ?

Why don't see Novakon's Torus Pro at http://novakon.net/bedmills/torus-pro/ before you make a decesion ?
It has excellent travels which are 24x15x11.5" , which makes the largest work aread in its class .The 6000RPM industrial AC spindle motor , plus very smooth and rapid servo axes will achieve very easy and fast chips making .
Novakon's PDB is in production now ,it will be getting into the market very soon .
Novakon also has Financial Resources available which will help customers who want the mill but with budget problem .

[TOTALLYRC]

i have been reading online and watching videos about milling and machining stuff out
now i was wondering how the heck can i justify a pcnc 15k investment in a hobby :idea:

i already work 40hrs + a week dont really want to quit work to pay for a mill and i also have to think about my old days ...

why purchase a mill well i many litle and bigger projects id like to take a crack at a new form of turbine, a magnet based motor
some random knicknacks maybe some knifes . (not really into knifes but the ones i have seem not so good/incompleate)

my brother is quite knowledgable in terms of machining and well just about anything really ... so i do have a knowledge base in case i need
( he might also be interested in aquireing one)

so to the point how the heck do you justify spending 15-20 k on a "hobby" how do i finance it ? the mill i would buy would probably be a pcnc 770 or 1100 ( i have looked at others and yes they are cheaper but i dont like the y travel on most and they also dont have neither the support that tormach seam to have nor the options.)

looking as to ways of financing this endavour . i could make knifes like mr grismo or maybe something else but what ?
think i could receive grants for my "research projects" ?

i also have a steep learning curve .

i would also need some materials but that i figure my project would need like 1-2k$ worth . i make about i can put about 5 k a year on the side so getting the money would be a 3-4 year project but i dont want to trow money at it in hopes it magically produces something worth while [that will pay for itself would be nice... ] ( i dont beleive in that kind of instant gratification...)

have you guys /gals had any trouble "paying off" your cnc tools ?

Why do you think there are so many hand built router type machines out there?
The way I did it was to buy broken down stuff that needed lots of work. This way over the years I can nibble away at the cost. I am also preparing for retirement. I will have it all ready to go and God willing be able to make a few dollars at that time.
Not tomention a very patient wife.

Mike

[ViperTX]

|eric| I'm in the same boat, trying to justify $15K for a CNC Mill. I've looked at the Torus Pro, but am concerned about the limited Z especially when you add a tool changer and a large vise, I do like the larger Y. I like the Tormach's Z though with a smaller Y.

I ordered a MTW MD001 which was suppose to be delivered in Mar and now looks like mid June 2013, so between now and then I will decide whether to get a Torus Pro, Tormach, or a used VMC. Will I make money....well eventually, right now I'm thinking that it is like a new vehicle and will pay it off in 5 years, so no new truck this year.

So, the company that leases the Torus Pro is telling me that you have to be a business to lease the Torus Pro. Makes no sense as small business owners use their own personal credit to finance equipment.

Paul

[Novakon]

We would like to take a moment to help clarify some of the Z height discussions. By appearances it may seem the Z height between the milling systems may seem large, but assuming you were to use a vise or some type of clamping system for your work, you will loose a significant portion of your travel in the first 4-5 inches. The effective range of the Torus PRO is from approximately 4.25" to 16.75". Naturally, if you will use a vise, you will not loose your height. If you clamp your part directly to the table, there is a height difference...a natural trade off. The addition of the ATC to the Torus PRO will still have a max height of just under 17" so tool changing will occur at a significant height and the work envelop is still very large.

A major difference on our PDB for the Torus PRO that has not clearly been brought out yet, is it can be used directly with R8 tooling without the need for the "TTS". Why is this so important? Simply put, you are not forced to purchase the expensive ATC holders until you decide to buy an ATC. This saves big bucks until you are ready to move on to the next step. You can take some time and run the mill with a versatile PDB and then move into the professional world. Something to consider.

Financing a mostly a commercial venture, so we have to play by their rules. It is not very difficult to form a company and the nice thing is that your personal credit will make the application simple to qualify. A simple application to form a company and you are on your way. There are also a number of tax advantages by doing this...check with your accountant for your best solution.

We hope this helps in your decision.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[thatotherguy]

Start with a desktop mill, router then go from there.

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[awerby]

Like "that other guy" said, you don't necessarily have to jump right into an industrial machine, if this is still a hobby venture. You can get a Taig mill set up in the factory with CNC for under $2500, that will at least do small versions of the projects you mention, without putting you in a big financial hole (which can take a lot of the fun out of this). If you later decide you need to scale up, at least you'd be doing that with some experience under your belt, and a realistic idea of what else you might need. There's a lot of software you can try that's cheap or even free, so you can get an idea of what works for you without being under the gun to pay off a big note.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[handlewanker]

Hi, starting out at the bottom end you will need at least $10K......that is for a 770 plus the basic tooling to get you moving.

Anything less than this is definitely a manual mill retrofit and all the add on bits and pieces, costing at least $5K, which leaves you with a mill you'll rapidly outgrow, not only in capacity but definitely in capability if you want to do any small business enterprise and stand a chance of making it pay.

If you have the time and facilities you could fabricate a mill using layouts currently ground breaking but needing workshop facilities and time to achieve it, but at least you will only be spending in terms of hard cash for materials that you don't want to fabricate, like linear rails, ballscrews and spindle bearings etc.....all the other bits for a basic mill without the electronics or tooling are the same for any build.

Attached is a sketch of a mill fabrication you can make from basic materials and some workshop expertise.......the linear rails eliminate all the expertise you would need to otherwise work with hand scraped dovetails and leave you with a true state of the art CNC capable mill, just add the electronics to go.
Ian.

[|eric|]

i was looking at small desktop mills like grizzly and even a syil but price wise their minimum 3k of investment so if im going to put 3k on a mill that im going to overgrow might aswell put it to a mill im not gona overgrow...

[handlewanker]

Hi, That's the starting point......but first establish your max budget, allowing for peripherals to get you up and running etc.

You also need to establish what kind of workload envelope you need.......we all need the biggest and the best machine for the least.....LOL.

I don't think you would be badly served if you were in the 15K max bracket and walked the boards playing one dealer off against the other to secure the best deal.....it's a buyers' market by all accounts.

Above all, the most important thing is to really understand the need for a mill and just buying a mill and then trying to think of something to do with it is putting the cart before the horse.

The product makes the money, and the mill, whatever, makes the product......it could also be a CNC lathe or router.

If you don't have a definite product in mind that you want to spend a load of money for machinery on, best sit down with a marriage counsellor, because that is possibly grounds for a divorce....LOL.

Form a definite game plan, decide on the best way to make it, then either send it out or make it in house.

You can't buy the machine then invent the product.

Most people with stars in their eyes see CNC as the be all and end all of the money chain.......that's very nice if you can marry the two scenarios of working your very own CNC mill in your very own workshop in your spare time, or full time, if it takes off and gives you further incentive to develop other products you never thought of until you started seeing the tool move of it's own accord.

It's a good sport, but it gets better when the grand plan materialises and it pays you to have fun.
Ian.

[thatotherguy]

You can buy a $900 mill on Ebay a 3040DZ? I have one coming in the mail any day now.

[handlewanker]

Hi, by no stretch of the imagination is the 3040 a mill, but it will function to a degree as a router.

If you bought this machine as a mill you should have read the fine print.

I think you will struggle to cut even aluminium with any size cutter, you'll just have to work within it's design limitations.
Ian.

[thatotherguy]

I am mainly using this to practice on wood. Until I can get my skills up. Then build a upgraded version.

[handlewanker]

Hi, way to go....at that price you won't go far wrong for the learning curve......I think the 3040Z comes with the electric spindle not the cable driven one advertised for another model with the same number.

If you've got the ballscrew model you're a winner.

I considered buying one myself to get the knowledge I lack for CNC use, but as I watched the CNC build of the ICNC-1 mill by Skyfire in another thread, I decided to wait and see what the outcome was for the final sales price.....it was posted as a mill build from beginning to end for a commercial intention using state of the art design and materials.
Ian.

[thatotherguy]

Yeah true. I just don't have alot of funds to play around with.

[handlewanker]

Hi, are you going to indulge in a 4th axis for $300....EBAY of course.

I read that they are pretty weak in the motor drive, but you don't know what the poster was trying to do with it, and the machine was the bigger 6040 model, so it might have been a great expectations scenario on the cheap.

6040 routers are about twice as big as the 3040, so they might have had big bits of work....you only get what you pay for.

I see there is a 3040 model with a water cooled spindle, 24,000 rpm I think, but small cutters.....ER11 collet....could be fun at about 1,200 bucks.
Ian.

[thatotherguy]

Hi, are you going to indulge in a 4th axis for $300....EBAY of course.

I read that they are pretty weak in the motor drive, but you don't know what the poster was trying to do with it, and the machine was the bigger 6040 model, so it might have been a great expectations scenario on the cheap.

6040 routers are about twice as big as the 3040, so they might have had big bits of work....you only get what you pay for.

I see there is a 3040 model with a water cooled spindle, 24,000 rpm I think, but small cutters.....ER11 collet....could be fun at about 1,200 bucks.
Ian.

Mainly most likely going to change the spindle and add a fourth axis later

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