[Just Me]

Normally I would agree that a cheaper price means lower quality, but in this case as it often is with the two sites mentioned, they are identical.

Manufacturer Part Number: 5731400

Lower price does not always mean less quality...

MSC charges more becuase they will ship that day...Enco will not unless you pay the next day rate...

If I need a tool for a job the next day...30% more on the cost sometimes is worth it...MSC know this...If my shipping charge for next day from MSC is Less than next day from Enco... paying more for the tool may not even matter in the end...

[Gerry Sweetland]

Hi Ray,

Gerry,

Well, the same owners owning both doesn't make it "the same company". They could certainly still be completely separate, and totally unrelated, business entities, even if Enco is "owned" by MSC. I didn't realize even that relationship existed. Where did you learn that? In Googling, I see a lot of speculation about the relationship, but nothing I'd consider factual evidence.

Regards,
Ray L.

OK

Gerry,

Where did you learn that? In Googling, I see a lot of speculation about the relationship, but nothing I'd consider factual evidence.

Regards,
Ray L.

Here is a link to my quick Google search I did this morning. I only quickly read through the second and fourth results in the list.

https://www.google.com/#output=searc...or.r_qf.&cad=b

:cheers:
Gerry

[LeeWay]

If I have to have it next day, I order from McMaster Carr usually.
No overnight charges for me, but it comes in the evening the next day.

McMaster-Carr

I also don't have control over brand name when ordering from them.
Comparable prices I think.

I usually wait and order from Enco when they have discounts and free shipping and then buy in bulk.
I get deep discounts on brass rod this way.

Just for instance the rod I need for my products.

Enco 360 brass rod:

3/8" brass rod 6' long. $23.86 usually on sale for $20.03 and when you buy 4 they are $17.03.
9/16" rod lists at $45.55 usually on sale for 38.98 and when you buy 4 it's $33.13.


MSC:

6' 3/8" brass rod with no quantity discounts is $29.48

9/16" is $57.49.


For 4 of each rod from Enco is $200.64 and sometimes free shipping or even further discounts.


The same material from MSC is $347.88 plus shipping.

So, it does make a big difference to me.

[Just Me]

If I have to have it next day, I order from McMaster Carr .

McMaster-Carr Great for what they have in stock...I needed an M11X1 Bottom Tap...They had it...MSC did not...
But it did come the next day...The 2 pcs set..$94+shipping...So the service and tap came @ a price...
I just pasted the cost along...

[BAMCNC.COM]

Shars.com and lakeshore rebrand cutting tool...they don't make them...
$46.00 for a 1/2 2 flute carbide drill/mill is no cheaper than buying OSG, Data Flute, Harvey or any mfg...

Do you think Lakeshore doesnt grind their own endmills? Or did I misunderstand, because they do, I even know who coats their endmills. Almost all of the carbide comes from like 2 suppliers in the world, companies may grind it up to powder and make endmills, or make blanks to sell to grinders, such as lakeshore, they are an endmill grinder.


Also, yes MSC and ENCO are the same, kinda like Sams Club and Walmart

[bhurts]

I try to buy from Discount Tools, Cutting Tools, Abrasives . There web specials are a great deal for solid carbide tools. They are also made in USA. I believe a lot of there carbide tools are made by fullerton. I know there performance endmills are. Just trying to throw a wrench into the enco/msc debate.

Ben

[Just Me]

Do you think Lakeshore doesnt grind their own endmills? Or did I misunderstand,...
Also, yes MSC and ENCO are the same, kinda like Sams Club and Walmart

My mistake about Lakeshore...A lot of tool suppliers will have end mill and cutter packaged with their name on them...A couple of example would be American Carbide in my area....They are owned by the same guy that owns Micro Cut USA..
.Micro cut USA is Harvey tools my compitation in the micro tool market...The tools are made by another company and sold with the name on them...
That company is owned by another tool MFG..

Other than this site I have never heard of Lakeshore...how long have them been around...

...MSC has bought:

J&L Supply
Enco
American Tool Supply (Chicopee Ma and NC)
American Specialty Grinding (Chicopee MA)
AccuPro
Hertel

Just to name a few

[kevinro]

I generally have pretty good luck with Enco and tend to buy a lot of tooling from them, especially in the 1/8" and 3/16" sizes. I have been doing well with either Hertel or Atrax in those sizes. Relatively inexpensive, and seem to last just as long as Data Flute and OSG for much less. I do like Data Flute for 3/8" and above.

The students that use my machine a lot can go through a lot of 3/16" Atrax mills in a week. I usually buy them 12 at a time. When I run the machine, I can use a 3/16" Atrax 3 flute for several weeks before replacing it (6061). The kids do pretty good, but they do occasionally crash the bit (forgetting to reference Z) or they occasionally push the speed too fast on a slotting cut. So the bits are lasting with the kids if I remove catastrophic events. The kids actually do better with the 1/8" bits because they recognize them as 'small' and tend to be more careful.

[rlockwood]

My mistake about Lakeshore...A lot of tool suppliers will have end mill and cutter packaged with their name on them...A couple of example would be American Carbide in my area....They are owned by the same guy that owns Micro Cut USA..
.Micro cut USA is Harvey tools my compitation in the micro tool market...The tools are made by another company and sold with the name on them...
That company is owned by another tool MFG..

Other than this site I have never heard of Lakeshore...how long have them been around...

That sounds about right.

Lakeshore has been around awhile, and i'm not entirely certain they arent playing the same game.

If you pay attention to press releases, you'll quickly realize there are very few actual players in the carbide game.

[Hirudin]

I've had good luck with Lakeshore's three-flute "rougher/finisher" aluminum-cutting bits myself. I haven't really tried very many brands though. Most times I have tried a different brand something goes wrong, harmonics usually.

I actually bought a bunch of different brands/models of end mills to try to do a comparison between them, but I don't really know how to compare them fairly. I started a new thread over here if anyone would like to chime in...

[BAMCNC.COM]

Lakeshore grinds their own endmills, I have a friend who has been there. Their endmills are high quality and brittle.... I think they get them too sharp.

[Just Me]

Lakeshore grinds their own endmills, ...

The price for their 1/2 3 flute V-mill was $48...last time I paid $53...I'll try them next time I order...
I did find this quote on their site...
"Our unique geometry includes a .005-.007 corner radius extending tool life"

kinda re-inforces my first statement about a corner round vs square corner mill...I myself like a ,020 corner raduis for heavy cuts...

[rlockwood]

Lakeshore grinds their own endmills, I have a friend who has been there. Their endmills are high quality and brittle.... I think they get them too sharp.

Good to know, I prefer to cut the middle man wherever possible, so i'll gladly continue ordering from them (though admittedly I don't as much as I should..)

Too sharp is relative to the material being cut. Can't be too sharp in aluminum IMO, but many other materials benefit from an edge prep.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Lakeshore grinds their own endmills, I have a friend who has been there. Their endmills are high quality and brittle.... I think they get them too sharp.

Hey! I'll make you a verrrrry generous offer: You buy a bunch of Lakeshore endmills, and have them delivered to me. I'll use them for a few days, until they're no longer "too sharp", then I'll send them along to you. Sounds like a win-win! Whaddya say? :-)

Regards,
Ray L.

[mike sr1]

Lakeshore grinds their own endmills, I have a friend who has been there. Their endmills are high quality and brittle.... I think they get them too sharp.

The theory behind this is that if the edge is honed slightly it will hold up much longer. I had a buddy that was a tool grinder for Alco valve for years and that was his explanation for it.
I mainly cut aluminum and I like them sharp, I have 100 or so 3d holes on a .25 4 flute carbide and it still is cutting great. My biggest problem is breaking them due to program mods or a piece of swarf getting between the cutter and the work and chipping the edge or breaking the cutter etc.

[BAMCNC.COM]

A extremely sharp carbide edge won't stand up to chip recutting at all, once that sharp edge has a tiny chip its all down hill fast is what I mean by what I said. Maybe I should say 99% of what I cut is Titanium, not Aluminum.

[rlockwood]

once that sharp edge has a tiny chip its all down hill fast

Consider though what happens when your edge prep becomes any significant portion of your chip load. A .001" edge prep, with a .0015" chip load, sure isn't doing a lot of cutting. So keep that in mind when choosing tools with an edge prep. A lot of inserted tools will implode virtually instantly if your chip load is too low, and its because of the large land added by the hone.

I should say 99% of what I cut is Titanium, not Aluminum.

About 45% stainless, 45% aluminum, by volume.. with everything else taking up the other 10%. Titanium a hand full of times, though I've never been in a position to attempt to achieve production level removal rates.

[nitewatchman]

Interestingly, the premium and standard cutters both make the same noise when I snap them off.

The only difference that I can tell is the noise that I make. It is higher and more anguished when I break the "good" ones.


nitewatchman

[LeeWay]

Yeah. You get that rolling stomach feeling. I did this about a month ago to a brand new 3/8" 4 flute long end mill. Had not even made the first cut yet.
I turned the spindle on I thought. The shop was noisy and The coolant was running, I hit the go button. I hit the stop button at the same time it snapped. OUCH!!! Had to take a coffee break.

[sansbury]

Interestingly, the premium and standard cutters both make the same noise when I snap them off.

LOL, literally. Ain't that the truth.