[gio666]

Something wrong with your ebay searching for 6040's?

They're all over the place. Very easy to find. The specs are also listed on them, but in essence, proper ballscrews and ballnuts, very nice and powerful but quiet spindle/VFD combination, solid aluminium frame with quite a lot of mass (which really helps with reducing resonance, vibration and noise), aluminium t-slot table, decent NEMA23 steppers, t-slot clamps, most also have supported linear rails and ball bearing blocks, (not v-bearings running on steel angle), etc, etc.

The only issue is the garbage controllers they ship with, but even allowing for the additional cost of a G540, they still work out a better and cheaper proposition than any comparable machine that I'm aware of.

By craftsmanship, are you meaning produced items or the finish of the machines?

cheers, Ian

You cant tell much from a picture on ebay? I was wondering if you could show the detail of frame your talking about not electrical . I have seen the machines,I was just wondering your intake to what is high quality and construction .
Like are all the mounting surfaces machined flat? Are the rails pocketed to insure perfect alignment .

[gio666]

It has nothing to do with how China makes machines. Its more of what is acceptable to people .
I have gotten complaints of 3/10th of a thou at 24 inch before and my machines are not much more than china machine.
As i said before, there a lot more to why machine cost is higher than from looking at a picture from 20 feet away.
If china machine works out for you ,that's great. I made a joke about using some short cuts as in the china machine designs, ended up getting 25 emails in 5 mins saying why you going to do that for. I had to repost i was only joking about it. For some reason people hold all other country's to a higher standard.

[aarggh]

You cant tell much from a picture on ebay? I was wondering if you could show the detail of frame your talking about not electrical . I have seen the machines,I was just wondering your intake to what is high quality and construction .
Like are all the mounting surfaces machined flat? Are the rails pocketed to insure perfect alignment .

They are all made of a substantial amount of aluminium flat, from memory they are around 40-50kgs, or possibly more, I do sort of recall a figure of 70kgs quoted but I don't think it's that heavy. I do know though it's damn heavy which is great when doing aluminium machining!

On mine all joins are flush butt joins, some edges can look a little rough but that's cosmetic. Everything is bolted very well together. I used mine to machine 35mm-40mm billets of aluminium into spindle mounts, and found the noise was quite bad depending on the DOC and speed, as well as the cutting mode. But what I did to fix this was to unscrew the T-Slot table, and stick down really thin double sided sisalation tape, and then screw the table back down. This made an unbelievable difference to the noise level, and I could happily machine aluminium, plastics, whatever, without upsetting the neighbours.

I did check the level when I got it, and the table was perhaps 0.1mm-0.2mm different along one side, so I just shimmed it up (paper from memory?).

The spindle, which is 800w is absolutely fantastic, and after using domestic wood routers for several decades now, I will never be convinced by the arguments of those who espouse domestic routers over spindles! The spindles are more than powerful enough for any task, and also run far, far quieter, with no air flow to blow dust everywhere as it machines, or noisy brushes to wear out. I've had this machine doing all manner of work, including entire weekends machining aluminium.

The overall finish of the machine I would definitely describe as less than polished, but who cares, I've saved a bundle, and I always tend to prefer function over form unless it's an art piece.

A nice looking machine is great to look at, but if it can't stand up to the rigors of machining, what's the use of it?

This last point is one that many people just don't get about the Chinese when they tackle something. In a very pragmatic and straightforward way, they have provided a functional solution to the issue of good quality yet very affordable machines. Obviously the blue controllers is the one glaring standout as a garbage item. But overall, the machines are a very functional, long lasting, joy to use.

I personally don't like trapezoidal or ACME screws, or v-bearings on steel angle in cnc machines, and definitely prefer supported rails and proper ballscrews and ballnuts, but having said that, one of my machines that I love, my tiny Sable-2015, has trapezoidal screws and delrin nuts! But I bought it purely for occasional PCB work, and it's just beaut for that. However in a big machine that will see a lot of work and load? No way for me.

cheers, Ian

[aarggh]

It has nothing to do with how China makes machines. Its more of what is acceptable to people .
I have gotten complaints of 3/10th of a thou at 24 inch before and my machines are not much more than china machine.
As i said before, there a lot more to why machine cost is higher than from looking at a picture from 20 feet away.
If china machine works out for you ,that's great. I made a joke about using some short cuts as in the china machine designs, ended up getting 25 emails in 5 mins saying why you going to do that for. I had to repost i was only joking about it. For some reason people hold all other country's to a higher standard.

I think a lot of people's expectations can be obscenely high sometimes, well, actually a lot of times. In Australia we get ripped off extremely badly on prices from everywhere, so we tend to be a lot more pragmatic and appreciate the products from China.

Apart from the occasional person who has real issues with a faulty machine, or spindle, or whatever, which will statistically happen no matter which country is producing the product, in general we don't expect champagne quality on a beer budget. That's a simple fact of life.

I do though tend to take issue with the ignorant view that a lot of people routinely proclaim, "if it's from China it must be crap!". This is plain garbage, and the rant of the uninformed. One of the members on another forum has the following sig, "The reality is that without cheap imported machines, I would be spending my time doing something less creative and less enjoyable".

That pretty much sums up the pragmatic view we have in OZ. We're not paying for perfection, we're not paying for form, we're paying for function. Plain and simple. So personally when I hear the bleating of others saying how crap the 6040's, or the 6090's, or whatever are, I take it as nothing but sour grapes at missed opportunities from ignorant people.

Remember, from our perspective, the ONLY locally supplied and supported domestic machine, that I'm aware of anyway, is the imported Shark Pro Plus, a plastic machine with ACME threads!

Plastic!

Acme threads!

And it's over $6000!

Actually, $6595 to be exact! And that's without shipping! CNC Shark Pro Plus : CARBA-TEC

So when the Chinese come out with a much superior construction machine, that weighs three times what the Shark weighs, for well less than a third of the cost, with a powerful spindle, not a domestic wood router, yep, it'll be popular. And so far, despite all the people that whinge about them, no-one else is stepping up to the plate with a comparable machine.

Again, these are my personal views, and will differ greatly perhaps from those in the States, as our buying opportunities are vastly different. But the simple fact still is, despite all the bleating, is these machines in this class, probably represent the greatest value and ROI in the market.

That's not to say their the best or perfect for everyone, if Carbatec can sell Sharks for the ludicrous amount of $6595, obviously there's a market for every machine!.

cheers, Ian

[victorofga]

I don't want to go in details, what evaluated quality and from what viewpoint..

let see from another area example.. so it wont hurts either side..
an engine block for a car is not visible.. some companies making out of a solid block.... machining out of a single aluminum cube..

however 99 percent of cars, engine block is a cast..

can we say what is not machined from one cube is not quality ?

this is the question..

those machines are there, on the net, and a lot.. while on other side American companies are closing up..

eric and his crew has expertise.. a lot.... what is on demand... despite this, techno closing up.. and I think its again a mile stone to warning for something..

in 2005 ebay was """normal""" there were some Chinese ... but there were many folks selling their own..

today you can see only Chinese..

we can going forth n back what quality and what workforce made them..

but something must happen to stop this..

it is not about shutting borders down and stop all import (including tv electronic cars..)

its all about we need over here a henry ford again
not one.. but many..

what small companies can producing invidually in a day.. can happen a factory setup makes with same quality within minutes, or a quarter of hour..

again example from carindustry..

on the assembly line, an engine can be placed into car about minutes.. also taken out same in minutes..


theres no exist mechanic shop can make same short time..


if we talking about error,, then this is an errorno one wants to see in the market is a huge """vacuum""
and this drawn here everything..

only way to stop it, to start producing it here..

the problem is, if a company need an equipment for a job and they cant afford the quality, they going to turn to the Chinese market,,,,
when you have missing 70 percent of the money to buying an equipment, and you have a company,.... you wont hesitate a minute long to buy chines, because you have to make the job..
you wont care a missing bolt, you wont care how Chinese worker living.. you want to make the job ...

at a five axis machine the price difference can be 30-50 K that is so huge that folks will """forget""" they need quality..

===============================

my example always the cars.. go out on ANY I say any street, and count on the first ten car, vehicle you see.. at least 5 of them foreign..

counting on about each 3 folks has one vehicle in the country.. that's 100 million vehicle..
that means 50 million vehicle was imported.. all money drained out...

ford laid out workers, they could go next day to work into Toyota dealership..
americans don't producing ford, they are selling Toyota, Mitsubishi..

so I think very okay to buy router form abroad.. that 50 million imported car says no matter what happening to American industry..

[KTP]

China has gone after the small household stuff and hobby industry. How many Chinese cars or jumbo jets do you see in the USA or Europe? I am not sure I have ever seen a Chinese made car.

China also will attack an industry, like solar, by having the government heavily subsidize the costs to the point of selling materials well below cost. In the USA that same company eventually goes bankrupt, but I guess China has the long view.

The USA has one huge advantage over China....energy. With the vast deposits of oil and natural gas that are being tapped, we have much much cheaper, even cleaner energy, which could attract manufacturing back to the USA. Things like aluminum smelters use vast amounts of energy.

When China gets unions, they are doomed.

[victorofga]

I agree with you all... I just like to call everyone attention, please read news..

im glad you all try to see as it would be a nuance.. but no... its already not a nuance.. german carmanufacturers tried to stop the Chinese cars selling in Germany.. they tried the way that their car is a clone of another brands..
they lost in their own country..

again in the late 80's or so Germany was a pioneer to taking technology and production to china reducing costs..

result is , now china can live on its own technology..


they got for all their car tuv certification, what is in Europe the most recognized standard.. with other words, in Germany you can sell only with the german tuv sticker..

China Overtakes Sluggish Europe in 2012 Car Sales - SPIEGEL ONLINE


how much serious is it?

look for comercials in tv.. you can see more vw and fiat ... because they cant sell in Europe, they try to escape over this market..
the whip on this cake when vw says """das auto""
they are meaning only their car is auto and all other is just a junk..

nice... can we get stopped at least this commercial?

so my concern to stop it really need to setup production here.. in usa..

[H.I.P.]

Wow, this thread now caught fire!!

Good arguments on all sides. The way I see it, is that Americans tend to TRY and sell to their domestic market based on patriotism. (Which is not a bad thing really)

The problem I have with that, is that American Industry decides what "should" be considered "American" or "Americana", and then a whole lot of sheeple just follow the rest of the people who just blindingly buy something because it is manufactured in the US of A (with Mexican Immigrant Labour....)

Go to the Sturgis rally, get on a stage, and tell them Mericans that Harley Davidson is a CRAP motorbike. (we call them "Hardley Dangerous"....) and see what happens. Lots of sheeple with blind loyalty to a basically inferior product.

Like I said - this is not really a bad thing. It only becomes bad for the American Producer once they can no longer rely on traditional loyalty from their customers. Eventually even patriots buy Toyota.....or Suzuki etc.

TBH, I investigated American producers of "affordable" cnc tabletop machines. Plastic bodies, skate bearings, Colt Routers, belt drive.......If nothing else was available, or everything else was much more expensive, I'd buy that, and most likely do what I need to do with it. But with the options that exist, the choice becomes easy.

And I'm not American (Nor Chinese, European, or Australian) - Whatever I buy WILL be imported. So I can Import from any country, the products that best fit my requirements given budget requirements. In a earlier post I mentioned I wanted to buy Chinese. I ended up with a used Isel, that will be upgraded and refurbished. BUT, this option was taken because of 1 reason only: COST. Paid about US$ 350 for the mill, and will have to fork out another US$ 350 for the G540. For $700 I have a cnc router with German pedigree and spindle, and American controller. A smaller 6040 Chinese machine (with no upgrade) would cost me $ 2000.

If I did not have this option, it would be either a Chinese 6040, or an even more inferior DIY machine. LOL, if I were blindingly patriotic, it would HAVE to be a DIY machine :-)

[Dave's_Not_Here]

The USA has one huge advantage over China....energy. With the vast deposits of oil and natural gas that are being tapped, we have much much cheaper, even cleaner energy, which could attract manufacturing back to the USA. Things like aluminum smelters use vast amounts of energy.

When China gets unions, they are doomed.

It will take more than cheap energy to get manufacturing back to the USA. Businesses are driven by shareholder value. Shareholders demand increased profits EVERY QUARTER. We live in a land of instant gratification. So, businesses will look to cut corners every chance they get so they can show their investors an INCREASED profit every three months. Mind you, the same profits every three months are not good enough... it has to be an INCREASE in profits. In fact, businesses have to forecast their future profits and if they fall short, investors sell off their stock.

Now, let's add the highest business taxes in the developed countries, soaring benefit costs for employees, union negotiated pay raises, costly government regulations, lawsuits from people looking to "score big", etc, etc, and you have additional reasons for manufacturers to go overseas. All these costs are passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices, which many cannot or will not pay. Sales decline and businesses that relied on selling these products, close their doors.

This is just one small microcosmic example of a vastly larger and complicated problem, which cannot be solved with cheaper energy. And by the way, most of these "vast deposits" are on government owned land, which to the contrary, we are NOT tapping because of more government/political involvement.

And don't get me wound up on UNIONS... and forget about China unionizing... not in 10,000 years.

[gio666]

I don't want to go in details, what evaluated quality and from what viewpoint..

let see from another area example.. so it wont hurts either side..
an engine block for a car is not visible.. some companies making out of a solid block.... machining out of a single aluminum cube..

however 99 percent of cars, engine block is a cast..

can we say what is not machined from one cube is not quality ?

this is the question..

those machines are there, on the net, and a lot.. while on other side American companies are closing up..

eric and his crew has expertise.. a lot.... what is on demand... despite this, techno closing up.. and I think its again a mile stone to warning for something..

in 2005 ebay was """normal""" there were some Chinese ... but there were many folks selling their own..

today you can see only Chinese..

we can going forth n back what quality and what workforce made them..

but something must happen to stop this..

it is not about shutting borders down and stop all import (including tv electronic cars..)

its all about we need over here a henry ford again
not one.. but many..

what small companies can producing invidually in a day.. can happen a factory setup makes with same quality within minutes, or a quarter of hour..

again example from carindustry..

on the assembly line, an engine can be placed into car about minutes.. also taken out same in minutes..


theres no exist mechanic shop can make same short time..


if we talking about error,, then this is an errorno one wants to see in the market is a huge """vacuum""
and this drawn here everything..

only way to stop it, to start producing it here..

the problem is, if a company need an equipment for a job and they cant afford the quality, they going to turn to the Chinese market,,,,
when you have missing 70 percent of the money to buying an equipment, and you have a company,.... you wont hesitate a minute long to buy chines, because you have to make the job..
you wont care a missing bolt, you wont care how Chinese worker living.. you want to make the job ...

at a five axis machine the price difference can be 30-50 K that is so huge that folks will """forget""" they need quality..

===============================

my example always the cars.. go out on ANY I say any street, and count on the first ten car, vehicle you see.. at least 5 of them foreign..

counting on about each 3 folks has one vehicle in the country.. that's 100 million vehicle..
that means 50 million vehicle was imported.. all money drained out...

ford laid out workers, they could go next day to work into Toyota dealership..
americans don't producing ford, they are selling Toyota, Mitsubishi..

so I think very okay to buy router form abroad.. that 50 million imported car says no matter what happening to American industry..

No one is saying anything about buying routers abroad? My point is not from machines, it has to do with work to finish it.
When you make your product, Do you charge to do both side or just charge for one on 2 sided part. But because they can only see your work from one side at a time , they should only pay for one side? . Because back side is about as much work. If you have to do 4 sided, do you charge for that ? or because you cant see work done because you cant see all 4 sides at one time only charge one side? I am just saying, from a picture you can really see where money at time invested. I am not saying there's anything wrong with buying small china machines.

I don't know of router company's closing because overseas machines?

I know AXYZ company from Toronto are growing larger buy the day . From a friend that works there,they just spent $200.000 for a machine to machine flat their stands. from what i have been told it holds to 0.03 at 20 feet long. AXYZ International - CNC Routers and CNC Knife Systems

I personally have no worries at all from Overseas machines. Having new machines 4x4 and i guess 6040 out very soon with profile rails and everything machine for almost same price as theirs.

About cars, i know the Ford/ Lincoln , Dodge and GM plants in Ontario have cars just pumping out .

Also there is 2 Toyota plants and third one opening soon. 2 Honda plants as well as BMW in Ontario

You might be surprised, but cast aluminum blocks are machined after to make all other parts fit they way they should. It not just taken out of cast and put together. To make it proper it has to be machine to spec.

[victorofga]

gio

what I seeing, many folks try to underestimate them and their presentation, or simply try to sweep under the table... saying how bad they are
and I think this shouldn't go publicly..

yes im clear about an aluminum block milled yet.. it was only an example to mill something fully or making out of a special casting, and milling only the proper surfaces.. I worked in automotive shop and know the processes..
I was working as drafter also worked in factory they made transmissions and conveyors for mining industry.. im clear about how part can be manufactured, or what machine can make them affordable..

both way can be quality or both way can be bad.. ie: casting or fully milled..
I also hoping the carindustry get back on its feet..

but still flooding the import cars in the country.. if government would prohibit financing foreign cars and only domestic car can be financed..
then customer wouldn't buy for cash the foreign car, even that's cheaper.. but would buy the domestic cars..
and dollar would stay here..
but as long as you walk in a dealership and same conditions you can buy foreign and domestic.. nothing will stop customers to buying foreign

axyz is a great company.. I just visited their website..


well today I was looking for ncstudio settings and google took me to the techno website... and a number of another.. this is what surprised me..

[victorofga]

gio

my concern is just same like before
theres missing from the market some really low cost stuff what anyone could afford..

I could imagine something like an universal frame pressed out of sheetmetal fully..

about 1/8 thickness could make out a frame even for a 4x8 machine.. it is possible to fold properly a sheetmetal ""strip"" and pressing ribs, edge returns that it becomes rigid sufficiently..

this ""system"" would be from 12x18 inches up to 4x8 or 5x10..

for this the customer would choose they want to mount onto.. likely v-roller , supported round rail or even square rail..

everything would be of sheetmetal .. it is possible to shear to size.. after cut shape a secondary process in same tool could cut the out line and all holes to exact size..
on press possible to make parts down to 0.05 mm tolerance or better..

and it would be quality part for a very reasonable price.. I think don't need to introduce how many part can be made on excenterpress..
a 4x8 router parts could come out of 2-300 dollar for the customer..

after that, controller motors, screws or rack n pinion.. everything by the customer choice.. the system would be prepared for any of the three guiding option..

with other words anyone could bolt together.. and parts were match
so you could build 24x48 or 36x48

folks got too much involved with aluextrusions.. it is easy to use, but in my opinion too expenses..

to manufacturing invidually wont bring down the price.. but demand is there because a 15 K machine not for hobby..

a professional machine like axyz even for businesses a serious expenses..

[ihavenofish]

what the fork?

some of you people need to write less. its incomprehensible babble. if youre going to make a 500 line post.... maybe take the time to learn 500 (or more) english words.



in any case... the US is not, and has never been the leader in cnc equipment. in fact, until taiwan and china came along, they were bottom of the line. the crap you buy when you cant afford something good. at this point, they are the crap you buy when you cant afford something good... and are diluded into believing american products are somehow best.

theres 3 ways to make a successful cnc equipment company:

1 make the best.

2 make stuff just barely good enough to finish a job, recover the expense, then throw away.

3 make toys.

i dont know an american cnc compnay thats hits catagory 1. haas basically defines category 2. many hobby machines make nice toys and nothing more. most of the techno machines i have seen didnt fit into any of the 3 categories. thats a problem.

[aarggh]

what the fork?

some of you people need to write less. its incomprehensible babble. if youre going to make a 500 line post.... maybe take the time to learn 500 (or more) english words.

You do realise not every one speaks English as a first language? There's these things called other "countries" in which the population usually speak their own dialect or language. For many migrants, English can be very hard to master, and allowances should made for bad grammar, not ridiculed.

[ihavenofish]

You do realise not every one speaks English as a first language? There's these things called other "countries" in which the population usually speak their own dialect or language. For many migrants, English can be very hard to master, and allowances should made for bad grammar, not ridiculed.

sigh. some of you also have no sense of humour!

[aarggh]

sigh. some of you also have no sense of humour!

no, I'm from OZ so we get humour in a big way, in fact for us it's a way of life. But some of you don't seem to understand that the placing of a smiley at the end of a very clearly rude and intolerant sentence, not only doesn't negate that fact, nor does it make it humorous!

If your making a humorous point, there's a lot less insulting ways to get it across. These guys are at least making the effort to participate, and communicate, and should be commended for it, not inferred they are inferior to the ways of others. And I find a lot of people from other countries may struggle with the subtlety, or lack thereof, of many other people's attempts at humour. To us it may be "funny to stir them", but to them it's a literal remark, so the context should be borne in mind.

[ihavenofish]

no, I'm from OZ so we get humour in a big way, in fact for us it's a way of life. But some of you don't seem to understand that the placing of a smiley at the end of a very clearly rude and intolerant sentence, not only doesn't negate that fact, nor does it make it humorous!

If your making a humorous point, there's a lot less insulting ways to get it across. These guys are at least making the effort to participate, and communicate, and should be commended for it, not inferred they are inferior to the ways of others. And I find a lot of people from other countries may struggle with the subtlety, or lack thereof, of many other people's attempts at humour. To us it may be "funny to stir them", but to them it's a literal remark.

/me slams head on desk.

youve determined that my joke was insulting... but you havent seem to have figured out what the joke was.

heres a hint: english has nothing to do with it.

[KTP]

in any case... the US is not, and has never been the leader in cnc equipment. in fact, until taiwan and china came along, they were bottom of the line. the crap you buy when you cant afford something good. at this point, they are the crap you buy when you cant afford something good... and are diluded into believing american products are somehow best.

I wouldn't call some of the past Hardinge stuff crap.

I would also rather have a Matsuura VMC than a Haas. Have you seen some of their 5 axis machines? Pure sex.

[gio666]

I wouldn't call some of the past Hardinge stuff crap.

I would also rather have a Matsuura VMC than a Haas. Have you seen some of their 5 axis machines? Pure sex.

I believe he is talking about routers not mills. Comparing TECHNO TO HAAS

[gio666]

I believe Techno closing has nothing to do with import machines.
Another company in Toronto , Pro-Line Automation Systems Ltd
Has triple in size in 2 years, all machines that use to be made in China.
You can find good machines and that in China, but they wont be on ebay lol