[kurbelgehause]

Hello All,

I'm looking at retrofitting a K&T horizontal machining center with a Camsoft professional control system. I've heard good things about Camsoft but all second hand or from salesmen. Not discounting what i've heard/been told; would anyone who has lived with it on a daily basis care to offer opinions on how good it really is?
My shop has a limited budget and we'll only get one shot to do this right.
I've read the sales literature and the system seems well thought-out and solid. However, I've found the most reliable evaluation to be the experience of those who have actually had to use it to earn a living.

Thanks for your help.

Ray

[HillBilly]

If you plan on using the software to control the tool changer I would suggest seeing a machine in person with this arrangement before spending $$$$$$.

Darek

[Karl_T]

I'm one of Camsoft's greatest proponents. I'm a hobbyist on steroids, retired control engineer. I first installed Camsoft on a stepper knee mill. Then on a Mazak M4 twin turret lathe with a 16 speed gear box. As time permits, I'm retrofitting a Hardinge CHNC super precision lathe.

Camsoft has the most capabliity of any open system control out there. The architecture of using a dedicated galil control computer for motion control and the host PC for the user interface and logic is brilliant.

Learning to install Camsoft has a very steep learning curve. Their technical help is excellent, but they do assume you know all about the hardware side yourself and have already spent considerable time learning the software. They are not there to teach retrofit 101. There has been more than a few people express disatisfaction with Camsoft. IMHO, These folks all underestimated the task, didn't take the time to learn, and then expected the tech. department to solve all the problems for them.

The toolchanger will most surely be your most difficult area. Camsoft has several default tool changer routines. One will be similar to yours, but not exactly the same. You have to understand exactly how every component of the tool changer logic works together.

If you're hiring an integrator to preform the above tasks, the ablilities of this person will determine the success of your project. These folks are all independent contractors and, of course, some are better than others.

Karl

[Carlo Rechi]

Iam more than Satisfied. I have to admit these people really know there stuff. There are fantastic and very smart. I thought I had known a lot about CNC before I started but they have shown me plenty. I started off slow wiring but the software was fantastic. The most open system I ever seen or used. You can do anything you want with it. I may have said a few things in the beginning but I have now used it more and see how good it really is.

Carlo

[Bob Pierre]

I have known these people for a long time. I can vouch for the people and product. They have been there for twenty something years. They know more about CNC than any other company I have worked with.

I will say though you must know your machine and it's wiring. They aren't much help past their own terminal strips. They have many installers and dealers that they will offer to send in to do the retrofit if you ask. They also have many tool change routines for different machines they will gladly give you but won't tell you how to wire it. I know. I would say that if you do have to do any logic and don't know PLC ladder logic than this is the best product on the market by far.

[camsoft]

Thanks for the kind words Karl, Carlo and Bob. They are noticed.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com

[murphy625]

Its good stuff..

I use the Factory Automation version so I can't say its being adapted to a CNC center but what I use it for can be just as complex in certain aspects.

I can make this thing sing and dance with the Camsoft package.. There is a learning curve but once you figure it out, the power is in your hands.

They have good tech support also...

[Citron]

For Colin and other Cam soft fans.

I too share everyones over all good things about Cam soft. I have looked hard and they are the over all best for a real machine shop like ours. It was scary at first not knowing what needed to be done because I never did this before but they did help us through it. Another guy did the wiring and we couldn't of pulled this off if we didn't have their technical support people to speak with.

I want Cam soft to do well because I want them to be there making it better and think it's the best product for our shop. I like Fanuc but can't afford a Fanuc unit it was $30000. Fagor and Anilam wanted between $8000 and $15000 to do the same machine.

I found a Tool changer file for our machine in the Macro.mac file that almost fit our machine to a tee. All I had to do was change some IO numbers and add some WaitUntil commands and was able to do it my self in one day. To me that is a big deal!!! I do know a little ladder logic but was able to understand and write Camsoft logic with NO experience. The Fagor and Anilam people said they would have to quote me 8 weeks to write the tool changer!!!


For Colin

When you asked about G54 and G43 these are there in my cbk file and seem to work like you would except. I think it is a matter of preferance on which method you choose.

What I found was that the T code did all these offsets togethet at the same time. This was new to me. I didn't know to use T at first cause I had to always add G54 or G43 before.

The T seems to add the tool height, length, size, wear and custom offsets that I haven't explored yet.

The T# M6 changes my tool plus adds all the offsets at the same time. I guess you could also add G54 or G43 too if you wanted.

Johnny

[JerryFlyGuy]

So, I'm back to re-evaluating control software, and wondering.. Does Camsoft have any type of kinematic software built into it? I've got the CAM software but need a control software that has Kinematics for tool offsets on 5 axis.

Jerry

[camsoft]

Jerry,

The topic of Kinematics is very broad. You should contact our sales dept with specifics regarding your application.

To answer your questions directly. Yes, we do have Kinematics ability built into the later version of CNC Professional by the way of routines that calculate the Kinematics prior to final motion. Think of Kinematics as a fancy word for mechanical mathematics. If the calculations from original G code X,Y,Z,4th,5th axes positions are to be done and translated on-the-fly to new positions for multiple axes machines inside the CNC Control rather than pre-calculated in G code or CAD/CAM than CamSoft owns a patent on this. We also have several macros that a user can adapt him/her self that are pre-written for specific applications which would allow you to specify pivot points, distance lengths, angular limits, degree to linear conversations and also wrist or elbow routines. However, all these are very machine unique and almost always need to be customized.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com

[JerryFlyGuy]

Thanks! So your kinematics model is really a post processor for the post? Is it a fairly tedious thing to do?

Jerry

[camsoft]

Jerry,

You're welcomed.

That may not be the best words to describe it but we understand what you're saying and yes it could be thought of as an internal customizable post processor in kinematics terms.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com

[jerrybaldwin]

We Installed a CamSoft solution for a local company and unless one of the prepackaged solutions fits your application to a "T" then I reccomend using a controls integrator for the installation. We were able to design screens and set-up option designed specifically for the customer that greatly enhanced their experience with CamSoft.

Jerry Baldwin
Control Engineer
Advanced Technical Services
(615)770-2860

[foxacoustics]

I have 2 Quintax 5 axis routers that I want to upgrade. They are 7'x12' w/36" of Z axis. "see picture" They have X,Y,Z,B,&C axis. B tilts the motor and C rotates around the Z. They are identical models and have Allen Bradley 9-260 controlers. The Amps and servo motors are Kollmorgen. They also have 8 position rotary tool changers. I spoke with a sales person the other day. I'm not sure if he just didnt come accross very good or what, but I'm kinda leery about this system. He did'nt have any references for people that had 5 axis machines for me to see run. He could not guarantee that the machine would move over 150ipm. When spending this kind of money I don't mind flying out to see a retrofited machine work. What started out as a $7-8,000 system quickly ended up over $12k . And thats reusing my amps and motors. The bad thing is that I have to do this to 2 machines.....can you say $$$$$$$
If anyone out there has a 5 axis machine running Camsoft let me know I would love to see it run.

[Karl_T]

I have 2 Quintax 5 axis routers that I want to upgrade...

He did'nt have any references for people that had 5 axis machines for me to see run. He could not guarantee that the machine would move over 150ipm...

Why don't you just ask to see very large industrial machines with tool changers running Camsoft? The number of axis really doesn't effect very much. (The CAM software to program it is an entirely different story).I would think its more important to see two different machines than to find one with five axis. Just my opinion.

In your situation, the accelerations and top travel speeds will be almost entirely a function of the equipment you're keeping.Camsoft, or any other software, has only a minor effect on the performance of a given drive, servo and machine combination.

Karl

[Carlo Rechi]

I write to tell you that went I to college for advanced CNC training I bought the student package for them to learn. You should ask them about this. I have no 5 axis machine. I start with CNC Plus and now use CNC Professional. I can tell you the student package has 5 axis lessons to part cutting and has 5 axis CNC screens you can run. There is a movie on there website of a 5 axis machine that looks like yours. Me and the operator are very satisfied. No need to be as you say leery in the start I was to but now I know the men there and there are very good and very smart. So far the best I worked with.

Carlo

[foxacoustics]

My machine will currently rapid at 1200ipm. I cut MDF at 250-350 ipm and trim plastic parts at 500-700 ipm. What he was telling me is that when machining contours the controller may get bogged down since it has to process thousands of lines of g code to move 1 inch. He wanted me to upgrade to a higher quality card thats around $1400 extra. He said it would guarantee the 1200 ipm that I was looking for.

[Karl_T]

My machine will currently rapid at 1200ipm. I cut MDF at 250-350 ipm and trim plastic parts at 500-700 ipm. What he was telling me is that when machining contours the controller may get bogged down since it has to process thousands of lines of g code to move 1 inch. He wanted me to upgrade to a higher quality card thats around $1400 extra. He said it would guarantee the 1200 ipm that I was looking for.

It may help for you to see how this is done. Real time axis motion control is accomplished by a Galil computer (controller) on a card. The Camsoft host handles all operator interface and I/O. This is a brilliant design.

The manufacturer of the controller cards is Galil. http://galilmc.com/products/prod_index.html#pci

Your salesman is recommending you get the DMC1860 card that goes on a PCI slot. The PCI bus connection from Galil to Camsoft is WAY faster than the less expensive Galil controller on an Ethernet connection. He's right for your situation, get the good card.

Karl

[cincinnatimachine]

We have retrofitted a Big Cincinnati Machining center, with a 24 station tool changer and our techo took about 1½ days to write the software for this. Then we had to mechanically rebuild The spindle centering device (a cam and hydraulic cylinder) after the spindle rotated with it in the homed position, (our fault). But in the end the tool changer is better, as it goes the quickest way now, not just one way, as it did when Cincinnati controlled.

It has taken us 1½ years to get the whole system working and now we are using the machine on actual work, though are still fine tuning it and have yet to use G41 & G42 in the programs. So far our jobs have not required fine accuracy, so has not been necessary, but it is time we sorted this out.

I personally would not do this exercise again unless I was close to a company that could do the retrofit for me, our techo is very competent in electronic repairs and has got some of our machines going again, without manuals, he has written software and used PC's to replace tape drives on a Howa NC7 and on our Agie wire cut machines, but he struggled with our Camsoft retrofit. In my opinion the Camsoft System is very good and can do everything that it says it can, but the instruction manual that comes with the system, is written as a question and answer and it might take you all day, to think what question, might give you the answer you are looking for. It should be written with and index, with, for example 'G1' and then how it works, how it can be modifed and with some example code and why that code has been used. Unfortunately this is not the case and the manual leads you to guess work and trial and error.

As I said, The Camsoft system is fine, but us being in New Zealand made it very dificult and we spent 3 times as much, as it costs to get a professional retrofit company to install it, in the US (just a guess) and we are still a good ways from being finished.

It also peaves me a bit to be offered an expensive upgrade to the system, (one year gone by), when we are still struggling with the one we bought originally. When we tried using Galil motor tuning system, to improve our driver performance, we found out that you can't run it, without unloading the Camsoft program from the computer. Apparently this conflict has been fixed now, but instead of this being offed as a debug, to the program you bought, you can only get this feature by buying the upgrade.

All in all, I am not trying to knock Camsoft, it does do everything it says it will, but unless you are a software person, with a knowledge of what you are trying to achieve, in the operation of the machine, buy Camsoft, but go for someone who does, to install it for you. I now wish we had flown someone in from the US, to do ours.

Colin

[Citron]

Colin,

I agree that you should use an installer. I know what I am doing now and have done a few CamSoft installs. It is still easier than learning ladder logic plus I get better help from them than anyone else I have ever dealt with..

I think that you are a little too harsh. The manuals Camsoft gives you are far more extensive than anyone else's. 4 printed manuals over 1,500 pages. Plus you may be missing the Search for Solutions documentation which list dozens of references to G1 for example that are not in the printed manuals. The manuals do have a odd section of common questions and solutions. I have never seen anyone else's manuals do it this way but this is only a added portion covering about 20% of the documentation.

The Galil servo program problem you wrote about would only happen if you mixed older Camsoft software with newer Galil servo tuning program. If they were both up to date using the same drivers you wouldn't of had to reinstall the software. I do recommend to people that ask that you always have their current version before I come out.

I did take a while doing by first one but I learned. I thought I knew everything but I tell you when it comes to a machine that needs the wiring figured out or special logic written for it like yours it is best to use an installer. I can now say it seems clear to me how their stuff works. It is very advanced than what I was used to. You can tell a computer person sat down with a machinst when designing the software. I can make it do anything I want now. I don't like to travel much these days but I would come New Zealand. I always wanted to go.

Johnny