[tea hole]

I am a die hard Okuma guy, but I've been running into several people who have equal love for mori machines.
What I see is good hardware with a trumped up Fanuc with some flashy buttons. Old technology like PCMCIA cards and memory measured in meters of tape.
But, I am biased working on mostly Okumas all day.
I want to know, in the world of mori enthusiasts, what do you love about your machines and what NEW technology does Mori bring to the table for you?
I ask this in the mill section, but it holds true for lathes as well.

I'm willing to change my mind, to give something new a chance, but I don't have any specifics as to why I should give mori a chance.

[rlockwood]

Ours are a few years old now, but even when we got them, i'd have been hard pressed to claim any 'new technology' as a reason to purchase. Really, as you say, they're relatively archaic, the most modern feature on ours is probably the USB connector.

What I can say is, they run 10-18 hours a day, 5 days a week, and have been doing so every week over the seven years we've had them. Knock on wood, but we've never required service of any sort. We shut them down for a few days a year to swap coolant and change the thru-coolant and ATC oils, all other PM gets done when the machine tells us to. 6 Machines.

They remove metal quickly, and every bore comes out the same from part to part.

[tea hole]

One can't complain about that!

Are yours still basically Fanuc machines?
Can I plug peripheral devices in to the USB like bar code scanners, Bluetooth adaptive units, keyboards, or is it strictly data transfer only?

I don't have nor hear any complaints about the mechanicals, but anymore, to me, the money is saved/made in limiting setup time. Everyone can use quick change tooling or fixtures, but what does mori offer on the control to aide with this?
It sounds like you're running HMCs, does mori offer, or do you have a wine rack style tool changer or a belt system?

[Manuman]

From the controls side Mori CAPPS offers 38 menu driven operations ( depending on model ), optional Esprit software fully integrated and networked between the control and PC, High Speed programming at the controls, Mori provide downloadable tool data, and less key strokes per program then any of the other conversational platforms. CAPPS programming is easy to use and post out in G code to allow the operator to maximize the program rather then getting stuck with basic canned cycles. Set up information can be stored at the controls through any windows based format. Including prints, PDFs, and DXF files.

From the tech side, the NLX series lathes have coolant through the casting for thermal displacement. The live tooling is direct drive motor for full torque and zero mechanical drive to eliminate vibration or power loss. NV series has gas cylinders as opposed to counter weights to reduce drag and vibration. And also allows higher acceleration and deceleration of Z axis. As far as precision, we have been able to cut and hold 2.0 micros all day with no thermal deviation transferred to the machine. In a nut shell these things are rock solid and deadly accurate. The NVX, NLX, and SL series are still slide (box) ways. 2 year warranty is offered, but never needed, and 10 year 24 hour parts ship guarantee. And now DMG / Mori Seiki / Ellison Technologies are one company, you get full service from one company and no 3rd party to pass the buck off on. This is just a few things that sold me on the Mori projects I managed.

[underthetire]

Never ever seen a NV with gas cylinders. And we have NVD's from the 1500 to 6000. Nv5000 never had them either. Have not seen a counterbalance on a Mori since the 80s in fact.

[Manuman]

Opps sorry, the new NVX series is now coming with them. Comparing them to the competition not previous Mori models. And all the new NHX machines are coming with scales as a standard. And rapid between 1,970 and 2,300 IPM. Pretty scary!

[underthetire]

You must be fairly new to Moris. They had a joint effort machine with ingersol in the 90s with linear motors. That thing was scary fast. Like 3000 IPM on a large horizontal. They had to slow it down at IMTS, it shook the floor so bad, people on the first floor were complaining. what's your opinion on DMG? Ive been told they are soo bad, the vp and service manager both quit Ellison so they didn't have to deal with them any longer.

[Manuman]

I don't know if I would call it new or reintroduced. I ran Mori's 10 years ago and then worked at a company that had all Haas. Imagine managing a shop of Haas after running Mori for years. I was able to get two Moris into the shop and it is amazing to see the changes in 10 years. Speaking of DMG / Mori and liner motors, I think we will see the company fast track technology. Like Moris having liner motors as an option in the future. DMGs already have them. I heard there was some huge changes announced at EMO. Mori has a new control called CELOS. Don't know much about it yet. I know there was a lot of hesitation with the merger, but to what I am hearing they are starting to play nicer together. DMGs market share in the US has increased and the service and support is getting much better. Several Ellison offices have DMG people at them now. Only time will tell as to what it will look like in 10 years. But I am liking what I see. DMG brings a lot to the table as to high tech. The Siemens controls blows Fanuc away. I think we will see the rigidity and longevity of a Mori and the High Tech of a DMG in the coming years.

[underthetire]

I hope mori doesn't go to seimens. That has to be one of the most unreliable controls we have, other than the Hurcos. The Fanucs and hedi's run for years without problems, even the Mits have been great. I started with the Mori distributers back in the mid 90s, was even the very first service manager group to go to the factory for training in 97. I'm glad I'm out of that whole thing now. Too many miles on both my cars and my body...

[Manuman]

Currently Moris are coming with Fanuc or Mitz. DMG comes with Seimans or heidenhain. The Ecos are offered Mitz or Seimans. MAPPS is one of the best systems now because of MORI buying Hitachi Seiki when they went under. I think we will see the same once this comes together.

[underthetire]

Mapps was out before the hitachi mess. Had nothing to do with hitachi. In fact, mori didn't even want to take over hitachi at first, the banks talked them in to it. Mapps came about because Dr. Mori was pissed at fanuc, it was originally a way to get a more user friendly interface between Mitsubishi and the operator. It has now become a nice interface, the first 2 versions not so much. In fact, customers wanted it turned off. Mapps 3 became quite useful, and mapps 4 is just really nice.

Once mori got the Hitachi mess, they quickly deleted most of the models, with only a couple surviving. The whole newer line up of box in box construction came about when mori stole a bunch of engineers from Makino, then started up DTL in Davis. Now, if you want the best of the best, Mori took over Swiss dixi, that is an absolute amazing accurate machine.

[Manuman]

Thanks underthtire for the history lesson. I guess the story I was told was told by an old Hitachi guy. I had heard the story about Makino. Of which is one of the companies that can stand toe to toe with Mori. What do you think of Taiyo Koki grinders ? I understand they are another Mori company?

[Manuman]

I guess Tea Hole is getting his question answered. Thanks again underthtire. This is good stuff!

[underthetire]

Don't know much about the grinders really. They were always one of those set it on the floor and forget about it machines. They do also have some stake in Tsugami as well, just not in the US yet. I think if they don't do something soon, DMG is really going to tarnish there reputation though.

I can tell you, when I was at the factory, we were one of the first groups to see the new ballscrew manufacturing facility, that was pretty awesome to watch. I'm supposed to go see the new plant up in Davis as well, I've been to DTL up in Davis a couple times. Worth the visit if you get a chance. You can sit down one on one with the machine designers and they actually listen. I can remember a group of us went to discuss how to make maintenance easier on new machines. One big thing came out was to put all the metering units in one spot. Low and behold they went and did it.

[Pottro563]

We just purchased 3 new Mori's where I work, and we have had nothing but headaches with Ellison, and our older model with the DMG tag runs flawless to the newer versions. Ellison was a pain to work with and the customer service on their end was horrible. Anytime actual DMG/Mori comes in they are great to work with. They push their own DNC software really hard and they do not amke it easy to integrate other DNC. The new probing abilities make set ups super easy as long as you are using dedicated pallets. all in all I would honestly only give the NHX and NLX we got a 7/10. Ellison support could be better or worse depending on region I'm sure. We opted out of pulling in two more mori's and went back to Mazak HMC 4000.

[tea hole]

Hearing about the easy probing is a pleasant thing, but, and this is a big but, reading through, i see a lot of people talking about Ellison in not so flattering ways.
I also hear a lot of what's coming and what may be and who they bought and it just sounds piece-meal to me.
I don't play phone tag very well and having to go through Ellison to get to DMG people is a huge turn off.
Top that off with the mention of 4 different possible controls, i'm down right terrified now.
Also, google searches are not very favorable to the MAPPS control.

Some of my questions have been completely unanswered, and some of the data here sounds a lot like salesman/distributor propaganda.
So, I will ask:
Can I plug peripheral devices in to the USB like bar code scanners, Bluetooth adaptive units, keyboards, or is it strictly data transfer only?
Can i run SPC software ON the control, or does it have to be separate?
Can i run a second monitor off of the control?
If I were to buy a new lathe or mill (this case study is targeted at a 40/20 sized machine), what control will be on it?
What kind of program storage is available? The website sure doesn't say too much about the MAPPS IV other than it has ESPRIT on it.
Does the control have windows running in the background? If so, what version thereof?
What about the .01 Micron resolution scales, what reliability does something with such a fine resolution for the long haul? I mean, that's Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal territory there.
What I can see on the website on the NHX shows 2 versions, the Siemens and the MAPPS version. Other than the control, how much of the rest of the machines are different? Do all the other parts remain the same? or is finding the right part if you have the less popular version going to cause you heart-ache?

[underthetire]

You can plug in SOME USB items, through the USB port inside the PC, not on the USB port for loading/running programs. Mapps is great now, first Gen didn't get you much difference. The Mits or Fanuc are fine, just not the Seimens. Id be wary of any Seimens offered machines in fact, since they are most likely DMG built machines, not Mori.
Mapps iV is embedded XP, and most of the machines come with either 1 GB or 6GB memory on the Mapps side, the fanuc or mits side is still limited. We run programs off the Mapps side all the time, we see very little difference. .01 micron scales are honestly wide open, accurate sure, but not crazy accurate like a .0001um sony.

Honestly though, if your happy with Okuma, and have a good relationship with your dealer, there would be no reason to switch to Mori. From recent experience with Ellison in fact, id recommend against buying a Mori. I still think the Mori products are built well, but I don't like the DMG products one bit, and I really am not pleased with Ellison.

I used to work for Ellison when they had Okuma, and even when they took over Mori ~2000, even back in the Yamazen days i worked on Moris. Either machine is fine, but dealers not so much.

[Manuman]

I do work for Ellison. But have been a machinist and programmer for 25 years. I have only worked for Ellison for 6 months, so not much time to fall into the salesmen role yet. I am fortunate to work for the number one office in the country. So I sure Underthetire well knows who I work for and with. Each Ellison office is autonomous. As to the DMG/Mori merger, there is no question that blending over 550 different machine platforms is going to take some working through. As to Siemens, I personally like them. They have fixed many of their problems and their processing speed and servo speed far out perform Fanuc. And I am a fanuc guy.

[underthetire]

Ellison Seattle was a good bunch of guys. Like a family. So Ca and No. Ca Ellison started going down hill after Jim Ellison retired. No Ca. office has never been stable, and is only a puppet to So Ca. Your still in the honeymoon phase, so if your in one of those 2 offices, watch your back.

Sent from my Quantum using Tapatalk

[tea hole]

So, to make sure we are on the same page, when you are referring to a .01um scales and .0001um scales, to verify we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about scales whose feedback is .00001mm or .00000039" and with a .0001um, you are talking about .0000001mm or .000000039". I cannot even fathom something that small. That's a finer tolerance than a grind tolerance by a factor of hundreds. I held a new part in a product line of ours to a 2.0cpK and held +/- 5.0um over 32pcs on a brand new machine. (always do cpK runs on new equipment and new parts) Are you sure you mean um, and not mm? I think we have a misunderstanding of what 1um actually is here. One Micron is .001mm, or roughly .00004", or forty millionths. If you are machining to that kind of tolerance (.0000001mm) legitimately, then damn, my mind is officially blown, but I refuse to believe that until I see it. Something about physics or something. The Mori site refers to pmax and psmax (for some machines) (i'm assuming accuracy and repeatability?) of 4um and 3um respectively, (and depending on machine).
That is getting off topic a bit.
So when you say MAPPS is embedded windows XP, what does that mean precisely? Can you explain that to me better?
Thanks;