[zsinclair]

Hi guys,

We are having problems with the spindle taper bell mouthing (lower contact point wears away) on our Haas VR-11. This causes the tool holders to stick in the spindle. A major job that we do on this machine is machining two parts complete from 7050-T7451 aluminum plate, 5.25” x 12.5” x 15.50”. Volume on these parts is about 40 per month. To rough out these parts we are using the following:

Cutter: Onsrud AMC704164, .750” dia., .060” radius, 2.50” stick out

Tool Holder: Parlec C40-75MC3 Milling Chuck. We also regularly evaluate and replace our retention knobs.

Cutting Parameters: Mastercam Opti-Rough Tool Path, Minimum Tool Path Radius (center of cutter) .125”, Step Down 1.27423”, Step Over .120”, Spindle Speed 7500 RPM, Feed Rate 300 IPM. Per a HAAS Application Engineer, we have recently (05-09-2013) modified our tool path to only climb cut which increases the time in this tool path by about 20-25%.

We’ve modified our VR-11 with a programmable air blast to keep the chips away from the machining area and from the tool probe when checking tools. We primarily run these parts at night, unattended, and we are expecting to generally run about 12 hours at night.

We experimented with our cutting parameters and adjusted them so we are always in the green on the load meter (90-100%). We are experiencing tool life of 2500 to 3000 pounds of chips with a good spindle taper. The machine absolutely sounds great when it is in the roughing tool path.

After running these parts for several years roughing with a 1.25” Iscar insert cutter, we switched to the Opti-Rough tool path to decrease machine time and lower tool costs. However, the spindle tapers are wearing out. We replaced the spindle when we started the process in October, 2012. We again replaced it in February, 2013, and then a third spindle in June, 2013. We are generally running only about 60 days before we start showing significant wear.

Haas’s response to our problem: “The spindle taper is worn out. You must be abusing your machine.” We fail to see how running the machine well within the parameters the machine is designed for is abusing the machine. Everybody, to a person, that has seen the machine cutting with the Opti-Rough Tool path has been impressed with the smoothness and performance. If we were abusing the machine, we would not be able to generate 2500 to 3000 pounds of chips with one cutter. In addition, Haas will not give us suggestions on where we should run the machine for the spindle taper to last, say a year. We’ve moved most of the roughing off this machine and the roughing we are doing is now at a 50% spindle load. We are still having problems and showing spindle taper wear.

We believe that Haas has a significant spindle taper problem and is not addressing it. As more Haas machines start using the Opti-Rough and similar tool paths, be aware that you might have to start replacing Haas spindles due to this taper wear problem. Is anybody else having issues with Haas spindle tapers? Suggestions? Thw problem we are having is, if a single tool can create 3000 lbs, of chips, how can I believe HAAS when they tell us we are abusing the machine. Especially if the load never goes over 50% now. I just need some help from somebody, or at least I am trying to pass on a warning to others that HAAS is not even coming close to keeping up with current maching practices. Thanks guys!!

[mactec54]

zsinclair

With the Onsrud AMC704164 cutter priced at $195 dollars you would want to be getting 3,000 lbs of chips, I would want double that amount from a cutter like that

Has anyone thought to check the spindle taper, with the tool holders being used, you need to blue them to see were the contact area is, I think you will find that the top of the tool holder is tight in the taper & the bottom is not so tight, this is the only way you can wear out a spindle, when the bottom of the tool holder is able to move around in the spindle, it is obvious that the tool is not seeing constant loading & is moving around in the spindle, to wear it out like this, I would say that your tool holders are causing most of your problems

[keebler303]

Why would only the very bottom of the taper be damaged?

My guess is you are pulling the holder out of the taper. You are using a high helix cutter which increases the pull on the toolholder. If your drawbar is weak, you can pull the holder out just a little tiny bit and that lets it walk around on the edge of the taper and buggers your spindle.

Have you replaced your drawbar?
Have you checked your drawbar force?
Have you checked that your pullstuds are the correct length?

I've never heard anyone brag about the quality of Parlec tools. Have you tried a high end tool holder?

[mactec54]

Keebler

They should not be having a problem with the drawbar as they have been replacing the spindle, every year, so there should be no problems with that part

I doubt that the are pulling the tool holder down, with .125 depth of cut, you would need more than 4,500lbs cutting force to do that

Parlec tools are made in the USA, (MN) they make a quality tool holder, & are much better than most imported tool holders

[zsinclair]

Our drawbar pressure is fine. We have gone that route several times. We have started using a brand new tool holder in every new spindle we are putting in, because HAAS is telling us we are abusing the machine. So we are trying to take every possible variable out. We have had applications guys come out and look at the machine. Since we are using brand new tools, tool holder, retantion knobs, good draw bar and brand new spindle, they are assuming we are abusing our machine. The problem we are having, is HAAS wont tell us where we can run the machine without bell-mouthing the spindle. If they say we are abusing the machine by running it at 100% on the load meter, fine, but they wont tell us where to run the load on the machine at. We have recently backed off to less than 50% load and that has not helped. HAAS is not willing to help us at all here and all the HAAS techs and 3rd party techs are telling us everything we are doing is correct. The third party techs as well as my Mastercam support guys, are all saying HAAS has a junk spindle and wont stand behind it. The only people telling us we are abusing the machine is HAAS. We are completely fed up with the situation. Thanks for the suggestions to check, but we already have! We are running out of options here!!

[Machineit]

So where are you located, so we can visit and see this in person?

[zsinclair]

We are in Wichita Kansas. My phone number is 316-641-6741. Zack Sinclair

[Machineit]

Heading that direction in a couple of weeks, may look you up.

Thanks--Mike

[Edster]

You could get spindle grinding service to grind the taper in place. I know it doesnt fix the root of the problem, but you could probably get a couple grinds before swapping a spindle. They did a spindle for me and it worked out perfect.

What about sending your spindle to a rebuild shop like setco. They might be able to upgrade the spindle or maybe shed some light on whats happening.

[handlewanker]

Hi, I would have to think that if the pull pressure on the drawbar "sprung" during a heavy roughing cut it would not be apparent to the naked eye as the tool holder returns to the pulled position once the cut is off, and this is likely evidence that the tool holder is rotating around when it is slightly out of the taper, so causing the tool holder to "massage" the end part of the taper and cause damage.

That is a logical explanation, but if Haas were at all concerned they would mount a high speed camera and watch the spindle end to see if the tool holder shifted down under a heavy cut.

I believe that Haas spindles (maybe not all) are made by someone else,.....the person I will not mention has stated this and sells the spindles for other uses too.

In a case like this, where the Bellville washers could possibly not have enough strength to hold the toolholder in, I would do a set-up using a solid drawbar to test the effect under load.

There would also be damage to the tool holder in a very specific "grooving" form, down at the bottom of the taper, which if present will confirm that the tool holder is not being held into the taper with enough force and is being pulled down slightly to allow the tool holder to gyrate inside the taper bore and cause a "riveting" action to the taper bore end.......not Haas's problem or fault.

The fact that the bottom end of the spindle bore taper is being damaged can only points to it being done by the tool holder(s) not being retained with enough force.......the top end of the toolholder taper will be held away from the spindle bore by the puller of the draw bar if it moves down at all.
Ian.

[underthetire]

Easy enough to check, and I would hope the dealer did by using a drawbar dynamometer. Should be ~1800lbs for a standard 40 taper machine.

[jalessi]

Easy enough to check, and I would hope the dealer did by using a drawbar dynamometer. Should be ~1800lbs for a standard 40 taper machine.

For less than a thousand dollars, it might be a good idea to have one on hand.

Clamprite Drawbar Force Gage CAT/BT - Spindle Clamp Force Tester

Jeff...

[tjamscad]

I agree with the OP Haas spindle tapers are soft and wont last, they cause sticking and spindle failure. There is a FIX for this I have heard. It involves an insert and I am told spindles with this insert have lasted years. More information later Years from a Haas spindle.

[haastec]

I agree with the OP Haas spindle tapers are soft and wont last, they cause sticking and spindle failure. There is a FIX for this I have heard. It involves an insert and I am told spindles with this insert have lasted years. More information later Years from a Haas spindle.

You have made this claim for two seperate spindle issues, so what exactly is this magical insert?

[stustev]

Gentlemen,
For this thread and the other thread where the FiX was talked about. There is no magical insert.
The insert is through hardened tool steel. The insert is 2 inch diameter and 2.05 long with a taper inside leaving material to remove after the insert is installed. To remove the original taper I bore the spindle 2 inches deep to create a .0015/.002 press fit for the insert OD. Boring the spindle two inches deep leaves approx .05 sticking out. Freezing the insert in liquid nitrogen reduces the size by .006. This allows the insert to easily siip in the bored hole in the spindle. I program the machine to bore the insert taper. I program two tapers to create a concave face of the taper. This allows the taper to contact the tool adapter in two places - top and bottom. This is the FIX - I have had it in 5 Haas machines - VR11, VF10, VF6 and two VF4's. We have no tool sticking, no more tool runout than when the inserts were installed. The machines cut better than when new. I tell people this turned the Haas machines into Mori's.
Haastec - Don't believe me? It is not possible for me to care ANY less what you think. Before I put the insert in the VF10 I had Spindle Grinding Service (from Michigan) grind the taper in the VF10. We ran the machine for two shifts. After running the two shifts the Spindle Grinding Service technician checked the taper and told me it needed ground again. Your spindles tapers are ****. Your company has been apprised of this fix (many years ago) and has chosen to ignore this issue.
Your machines are fine machines - NOW - after the insert is installed.
Just sayin
thanks

BTW - the inserts have been in the machines for more than 5 years each - the VF6 and VF10 for 10 years.

this was also posted in the other thread mentioned by Haastec

BTW (2) - I am in Wichita Kansas

316 258 0953

[tjamscad]

You have made this claim for two seperate spindle issues, so what exactly is this magical insert?

I was going to anserw you but I wasnt sure what it was. I guess stustev explained it though.

[haastec]

Gentlemen,
For this thread and the other thread where the FiX was talked about. There is no magical insert.
The insert is through hardened tool steel. The insert is 2 inch diameter and 2.05 long with a taper inside leaving material to remove after the insert is installed. To remove the original taper I bore the spindle 2 inches deep to create a .0015/.002 press fit for the insert OD. Boring the spindle two inches deep leaves approx .05 sticking out. Freezing the insert in liquid nitrogen reduces the size by .006. This allows the insert to easily siip in the bored hole in the spindle. I program the machine to bore the insert taper. I program two tapers to create a concave face of the taper. This allows the taper to contact the tool adapter in two places - top and bottom. This is the FIX - I have had it in 5 Haas machines - VR11, VF10, VF6 and two VF4's. We have no tool sticking, no more tool runout than when the inserts were installed. The machines cut better than when new. I tell people this turned the Haas machines into Mori's.
Haastec - Don't believe me? It is not possible for me to care ANY less what you think. Before I put the insert in the VF10 I had Spindle Grinding Service (from Michigan) grind the taper in the VF10. We ran the machine for two shifts. After running the two shifts the Spindle Grinding Service technician checked the taper and told me it needed ground again. Your spindles tapers are ****. Your company has been apprised of this fix (many years ago) and has chosen to ignore this issue.
Your machines are fine machines - NOW - after the insert is installed.
Just sayin
thanks

BTW - the inserts have been in the machines for more than 5 years each - the VF6 and VF10 for 10 years.

this was also posted in the other thread mentioned by Haastec

BTW (2) - I am in Wichita Kansas

316 258 0953

I am happy you could care any less about what I think and I never mentioned not believing in the FIX. I was merely pointing out the fact that tjamscad had posted in two threads about a Fix.

Was there some scepticism in my post? Sure, but it was because he had copied and pasted the exact same reply for two different issues without expanding on the FIX. I am not saying this was the intent, but there are plenty of replies on verious posts from other people who tease a solution which never gets detailed or ends up being spam.

I have never heard about the process you mentioned before. Also, I am not above learning something new and today you have educated me on something.

BTW, I do not make the spindles/tapers, nor does the company belong to me. As noted by my screen name, I just fix them. No other affiliation, sorry!

[haastec]

I was going to anserw you but I wasnt sure what it was. I guess stustev explained it though.

I am glad he did! The process sounds very interesting.

My apologies to you for the scepticism.

[tjamscad]

stustev do you sell this as a kit? Can I send you a spindle and you send it back with the insert?

[stustev]

stustev do you sell this as a kit? Can I send you a spindle and you send it back with the insert?

No - I am not set up to install the inserts in spindles out of machines. If there is enough demand that would be possible to develop.
I am in the process of installing a few inserts in shops around Wichita. We will see what happens.
About two months ago an insert was installed in a YCM bridge. Reports are the insert is working great.
This is just for 40 taper spindles.

I would guess this voids any warranty. Any core return would probably be rejected.

When boring the spindle there is no way to be certain the end of the spindle will not just fall off as there is no way to know exactly how the spindle is contructed. I have not had that happen but I tell everyone anyway. When working on my own machines this disclosure is not a problem.