[sd80mac]

I just downloaded the Solsylva 10 X 9 plans today, and am thinking about getting the 13 X 13 plans as well. Overall, it looks like a fairly solid build. The best thing I like about it is that the parts can be sourced locally. I have a couple of questions though for those that have experience with this machine.

Can the footprint of the 10 X 9 machine be increased to include a larger work area, say 12 x 12? Or would it be better to make the 13 X 13 more rigid so that it will be able to cut aluminum (of course taking smaller cuts on the metal)?

Also, is there much of an advantage using dimensional lumber outside of readily available sizes over MDF? Could the Solsylva be built using MDF? Would a torsion or semi-torsion frame increase rigidity enough to handle aluminum cuts? Or am I trying to overcomplicate the basic design?

Thanks in advance,
Donnell

[helo2001]

Hi Donnel,

I just started a 10x9 build myself (New Machine Build Solsylva 10x9 - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!) so I don't yet have experience with the final product, but have a few thoughts below:

The parts are made from 1x4 and 1x6 lumber. At these sizes, I doubt that you would be able to simply substitute with same size MDF and achieve a comparable level of rigidity for the gantry unless you redesign. Since it's a moving table router, you can make the gantry as heavy as you would like so it's probably not impossible. David himself is firmly against MDF and that's reason enough for me not to consider the option. Have you considered looking at some of the MDF plans and substitute a standard rod and tee nuts for the ACME screws? This would still allow you to source all the hardware locally, save for some bearings from VXB..

I got all Solsylva plans in one package. My initial intention was to build the 13x13 as my first router and upgrade from there. That was until I went through the plans and realized that the 13x13 was designed as a light duty machine to start with and that it would never be able to cut aluminum. For one, it uses bushings that ride on unsupported rails. You would need to change this mechanism in order to make it more solid. If you go that route, you will quickly realize that you are recreating the 10x9 plans.

It should be possible to relatively easily upgrade the 10x9 with a deeper table (Y axis) if you properly reinforce the base and support the Y steel pipes.

In any case, good luck with your build and let me know what you decide to do in the end.

-- Bartek

[aarongough]

I would suggest that one of the upgrades you should think about is to use ACME leadscrews rather than threaded rod. You'll get much better speeds and less backlash.

You can get ACME leadscrews from ENCO for incredibly cheap, like $3 for a 36" rod last time I bought from them. Get anti-backlash nuts from DumpsterCNC

[sd80mac]

Hello all, and thanks for the replies. I have given heavy thought to the choice of leadscrew, and am considering a 3/8" - 10, 2-start ACME screw with dumpster AB nuts. I had considered standard 3/8" -16 rod with dumpster upgrades, but I suppose it seems kind of silly to use cheap threaded rod with expensive AB nuts. I guess I could go all "DIY" on this first build, but most of the hard work, trial, and error has been done buy the multitudes that have gone before me!

Anyhow, I ask actually at Lowes right now trying to decide between Douglas fir or Poplar. Both are smooth, straight, and knot-free. Poplar feels heavier, but is more expensive. Brother, what to do...

Donnell

[helo2001]

Douglas Fir is probably stiffer - see Specific modulus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I took the ACME route as well. The with/without pictures on Solsylva's site are definitely convincing...

[sd80mac]

Hi helo,

I went with the Poplar because of its straightness and the fact that it is a hardwood, well "soft" hardwood. According to that chart, D-fir is a bit more dense than Poplar? Well, I suppose they are close enough. Anyhow, after doing the math, the total for both types of wood ended up at or around $40-$45. Select Pine was a bit less ($25-$30), and Top Choice White Boards were even cheaper; under $20, but full of knots and blemishes!

I plan on painting the machine before final assembly, so the smooth texture of the wood was necessary for the final finish. So far, I've only purchased the wood, a box of 1 5/8" coarse thread DW screws (I had fine theard of the same size at home, DOH!), and #8 finishing washers to add "flare" to the final look. I'm going to use 3/4" EMT conduit as it has a smoother shinier finish than the galvanized pipe. I want to try and give this thing with a polished, profesional appearance even though it'll be built from common materials.

As for steppers, there are many options, however, I know I want motors with more than 200 oz. of torque. This way, I'll be able to more easily drive larger single start all-thread or 2-start ACME thread (or whatever I decide to use).

Donnell

[helo2001]

I think that at this level the rigidity is probably equivalent. Well chosen samples are certainly more important. I ended up using a mix of maple and oak on mine simply because 1x4 were the truest in maple, 1x6 in oak.

So are you building the 10x9 as is or trying some mods?

--Bartek

[sd80mac]

I think I'm just going to stick with the design "as is". Many of the things I would like to create will fit inside the 10" x 9" x 4" envelope. I did think about scaling up the machine to give me at least a 12" x 12" work area (heck, even 12" or 13" x 9" would be a bit more beneficial), but I don't want to sacrifice rigidity for more work space, though another inch or two in length wouldn't make too much difference I would think.

I keep going back and forth between All-thread and ACME thread, and while I know ACME will yield better results overall, I think I'm going to take a more DIY approach and stay within the low-cost "spirit" of the way this project was developed. While doing exhaustive reaserch in the archives here I found very simple solutions to backlash like this one here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...klash_nut.html where a member named Chuck Knight showed an example of an ingenious and very simple approach to addressing backlash, and I think I may employ it on my machine with 5/16" -18 all thread. I can always upgrade to ACME and Dumpster later, but for now, I like the idea of getting everything I need at Lowe's!

Donnell

[Devastator]

I used standard framing lumber on my Solsylva and had to do it all over a couple weeks later after it warped. I used birch cabinet grade plywood and laminated all of my own beams and upsized them for good measure. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc_wo...lva_build.html I use MDF for a spoil board, not for the structure of the machine. Mine is in a dry basement, but the humidity would play heck with MDF because I'm in the Pacific Northwest.

ACME for this size machine is very affordable. I got mine from Mcmaster. If you use allthread, you might be disappointed. I don't know of one person who has been happy with allthread once they get past the fun of jogging the axis around and actually start making parts. Most either upgrade at that point or start on a new machine having learned a lesson.

I learned a lot of lessons building mine and continue to do so. Most of my parts have been built three times. In May it will be two years total build time, hopefully it will be done by then.

It takes longer than you'd think but it is rewarding so stick with it.

Good luck with your build!

[roy_okc]

Donnell,

If you do go with all-thread, at least use a size that could be easily replaced with Acme.

Good luck on your build. Start taking pics and post them soon.

Roy

[helo2001]

My 3 axis ACME upgrade on this machine ends up costing $220 between McMaster, DumpsterCNC and VXB. I didn't try to be frugal so someone may be able to do it for the $150 mentioned in the plans. I still don't know if this was absolutely necessary considering that my machine ends up costing a lot more than initially expected.

-- Bartek

[helo2001]

Donnell,

I saw your post about working enveloppes - the work area on this machine is approximately 5x9 due to the moving table design.

-- Bartek

[Devastator]

My 3 axis ACME upgrade on this machine ends up costing $220 between McMaster, DumpsterCNC and VXB. I didn't try to be frugal so someone may be able to do it for the $150 mentioned in the plans. I still don't know if this was absolutely necessary considering that my machine ends up costing a lot more than initially expected.

-- Bartek

That depends on what tolerances you expect and the speed you want to do it. For making certain parts with this size machine, all thread may be acceptable. For isolation routing of PCB's or engraving (what a machine of this size is very well suited for)...not so much.

Like you, my build is very low budget. I've been able to save money by more labor like making my own AB nuts. Spreading the cost over time also helps. I will say that the 5 start acme screws I used for my machine were the most expensive part, but well worth it. I went with a cheaper driver in order to afford the leadscrews. Drivers are easier to upgrade and don't require disassembly of the machine.

So, what will you be using the machine for?

[sd80mac]

Donnell,

If you do go with all-thread, at least use a size that could be easily replaced with Acme.

Good luck on your build. Start taking pics and post them soon.

Roy

Hello Roy,

The Solsylva 10 x 9 plans do include provisions for upgrading the machine to 3/8" ACME screws, but this easily adds $150 to the cost of materials; $100 in AB nuts and couplers alone. So what I am thinking is, build the machine stock, try some of the DIY approaches, and acquire "upgrade" parts along the way. This will spread the costs making it affordable. Also, regarding all thread, my plan was to polish the pieces to be used as the lead screws. I bought a couple lengths and used a wire brush to clean up the threads. After a few strokes, the threaded rod became shinier. So, I think I'll take a couple pieces to work and see what the wire wheel does.

I still have to buy steppers, drivers, power supply, and software; all of that easily over $500, and that's for the cheap stuff!

Are there any free, Windows compatible CAM programs available?

Thanks for your help!

Sincerely,
Donnell

[sd80mac]

That depends on what tolerances you expect and the speed you want to do it. For making certain parts with this size machine, all thread may be acceptable. For isolation routing of PCB's or engraving (what a machine of this size is very well suited for)...not so much.

Like you, my build is very low budget. I've been able to save money by more labor like making my own AB nuts. Spreading the cost over time also helps. I will say that the 5 start acme screws I used for my machine were the most expensive part, but well worth it. I went with a cheaper driver in order to afford the leadscrews. Drivers are easier to upgrade and don't require disassembly of the machine.

So, what will you be using the machine for?

Hi Devastator,

I envision cutting mostly flat, 2D objects including some PCB work. Also, small 3D objects that can be copied in resin. But then, once one becomes familiar with CNC, the knowledge and understanding of this process opens up an entire world of possibilities!

Donnell

[louieatienza]

Hello Roy,

The Solsylva 10 x 9 plans do include provisions for upgrading the machine to 3/8" ACME screws, but this easily adds $150 to the cost of materials; $100 in AB nuts and couplers alone. So what I am thinking is, build the machine stock, try some of the DIY approaches, and acquire "upgrade" parts along the way. This will spread the costs making it affordable. Also, regarding all thread, my plan was to polish the pieces to be used as the lead screws. I bought a couple lengths and used a wire brush to clean up the threads. After a few strokes, the threaded rod became shinier. So, I think I'll take a couple pieces to work and see what the wire wheel does.

I still have to buy steppers, drivers, power supply, and software; all of that easily over $500, and that's for the cheap stuff!

Are there any free, Windows compatible CAM programs available?

Thanks for your help!

Sincerely,
Donnell

I would seriously consider getting the ACME screws, even if you get single or two-start. Mos DIY machines here use high speed spindles like Dremels or routers, whose high RPMs require faster feedrates. In my opinion and experience, as well as the observation of other builds here, using allthread will severely limit your cutting speeds. You'll find that this is very limiting, especially considering the cheap drives and PSU you plan on using. Also remember that althread is cut from soft steel, and may be more prone to wear. whereas ACME is basically forged (rolled) and has a more durable, smoother surface.

In actuality smaller steppers generally work better with finer pitched screws since they can retain their torque at higher RPMs. Many people make the mistake of getting larger steppers, only to find their machine stalling because the larger steppers need way higher voltages than their cheaper drives could possibly handle, to achieve acceptable speeds.

You should be able to buy three feet of ACME rod very inexpensively, which should be enough to do your machine. Spider-type couplers can be bought inexpensively on eBay. I think many folks who go the allthread route get into some questionable machining practices since they have to compensate mainly for slow feedrates. Water-hardening drill rod really doesn't cost that much and is a lot harder than EMT or gas pipe, and it still can be drilled somewhat easily.

Use shellac to seal your poplar before painting it. If you use a water-based primer or paint first you can swell the wood enough to cause problems.

When I built my Solsylva, I started with single-start ACME, and saw early on that it wasn't going to cut it. I also tried EMT and anodized aluminum pipe. You'll find that even with bearings, these surfaces will wear pretty fast and you'll have flat spots on your pipe. The anodized stuff ends up flaking off and the dust wreaks havok. You might check if a local cabinet shop has some scraps of hardwood you can get free or cheap; I ended up using scrap ipe decking from a deck job. David Steele's designs work well and there is a lot of room for adjustment.

Check out PhlatScript, a CAM plugin for SketchUp. HeeksCNC is another one. I never used either.

[sd80mac]

Louie,

I hear you, and I WILL be heeding your advice and will include ACME 3/8" lead screws and Dumpster nuts and couplers on this machine. Now the question is, what number of threads and starts would be most beneficial for this machine? 3/8 -12, 2-start? 3/8 - 8 2-start? Or 3/8-8,4-start? I would like to cut Aluminum, but mainly plastics, wax, and wood. A lot of the work will include fine detail including PCBa.

Thanks,
Donnell

[sd80mac]

Well, I cut all of the parts for the frame this afternoon!

L to R
Top: Gantry Assembly, Base/Frame Assembly
Bottom: Z-axis Carriage Assembly, Y-table Assembly



The next step will be laying out all of the holes, and drilling. I'm thinking of running by Harbor Freight and using a coupon to pick up a 5-speed benchtop drill press. I could drill the holes by hand, but a drill press will ensure they are straight! I know there is a lot of "forgiveness" in this design as it is made from dimensional lumber. I am already thinking of improvements, but will continue to build this one stock. I may build a frame out of MDF just to compare. Without a table saw, I will likely use pre-primed MDF as I can buy it in the same sizes as the dimensional boards. Hopefully it will lay more flat on the table of the miter saw than the poplar did!

Donnell

[louieatienza]

Louie,

I hear you, and I WILL be heeding your advice and will include ACME 3/8" lead screws and Dumpster nuts and couplers on this machine. Now the question is, what number of threads and starts would be most beneficial for this machine? 3/8 -12, 2-start? 3/8 - 8 2-start? Or 3/8-8,4-start? I would like to cut Aluminum, but mainly plastics, wax, and wood. A lot of the work will include fine detail including PCBa.

Thanks,
Donnell

Donnell,

Your cut parts look great! As for pitch, I think two-start (3/8"-8, 2 start or 3/8"-10, 2 start) should work just fine, along with 150-200in-oz steppers. You'll get more speed with the 3/8"-8, with only a small penalty in mechanical resolution (.00125" vs. .001"). Given other factors, like lead error, machine flex, variations in endmill size, spindle runout... you probably wouldn't notice the difference.

I recently completed a machine witha 14 x 8 x 5 work envelope, using heavier components but with 2/8"-8, 2 start screws and 200in-oz steppers, and still get good resolution and 250ipm rapids...

[sd80mac]

Hello All,

Saturday, I stopped by Harbor Freight and picked up the drill press for $60. I won't be adding this to the overall cost of the build because I'll be using the press on many other projects. I have numerous videos and read many good reviews about this press so I believe I made a safe purchase. I'm just glad that my holes will be straight!

I currently do not have a workbench, so everything is being cut on the garage floor. I did make a support out ot scrap 2 x 3s that is 3 3/8" in height (the height of my miter saw table) to hold the long boards level with the table during cutting. My saw is an older Ryobi, so it's not the most precise machine. Nonetheless, it did the job for which I am grateful. I will be upgrading to a 10" slider in the near future. Currently, I have my eye on the Kobalt model at Lowes for $199. Some other tools I would like to get include a table saw and router table.

Also, I am building more shelves in the garage so I can better organize all the stuff in it. Hopefully, this will give me room for a workbench as I'm going to need a place to mount the drill press, as well as all the other woodworking tools I've acquired over the past year.

Donnell