[Bigbird48]

I'm beginning to think its a lost cause on trying to get the money back. I've heard Hurricane Laser is in some deep Financial troubles and probably spent your money already.If John Kaspar had your money and he was any kind of a decent person he would have refunded it already. Theres no guaranty that he won't sell the machine and then use that money for other purpose's . Might be best now to just take the machine, at least you'll get what you paid for. I'd go to Vegas and get it, make sure it works before you leave. Then you can do what you want with it use it or sell it what ever. You don't have to have anymore dealings with Hurricane.

[LeeWay]

It's enough cash for me to go to Vegas as well. I'm in South Alabama. Roll Tide!

Next question, is he a Gambler?

[joeybagadonuts]

...and this is where threads like this always leads to. How much of the OP's money will end up in Attorney's hands? I would think at least half.
As far as business and reputation goes, this guy missed the boat.
If customers do call up yelling at you, they are the most important thing on your plate. Take care of them. Do NOT IGNORE them. If they are yelling, you did something very wrong.

I don't have a dog in this fight, however the customer is always right. With the specified stipulations, the supplier should have refunded the balance without hesitance.
That is how one conducts business in an open market. Name recognition and reputation is everything. It reduces my faith in Mankind to see posts like this. WTF happened to the good old hand shake. Let the lawyers try to get Obama out of his own hot water.

Lee,

I agree with a portion of what you are saying, I am not supporting either side in this dispute.
If you dissect the receipt that Gene Sherman posted and the transaction timeline that Gene Sherman posted there are gaps of time that do not line up with the transfer of funds. Something led to the late delivery attempt, it may have been the additional time Gene delayed transferring funds.
The posted receipt is missing critical details, the date is not accurate, there is no mention of a color change etc.
Why does the receipt show paid in full, when the timeline post shows that did not occur until September. Words and facts are being manipulated.
A thirteen thousand dollar custom painted machine is not the same as a $6.00 dozen doughnuts.
$13,000 and bad behavior brings out the worst in many people.

JoeyB

July 20th 2013 - Went to NMB show and met John from Hurricane.

July 24th - Quickly received a quote from John for $13,324.50. Great response. Very pro-active.

July 25th - Asked about getting a gray & white machine instead of shades of green to better fit with our facility. was told "roughly 3 weeks build time, 3 weeks ship time 1 week customs and 1 week assemble, test etc"

July 25th - Asked if a 25% deposit would be enough to get our machine ordered, balance to be paid around September 1st (a month ahead of delivery!).
July 26th - John replied "That will be fine as long as the 25% deposit is non refundable due to the custom color"

The "custom color" is actually just the standard colors these machine are made in by G. Weike. They (Hurricane) have the Chinese factory paint them green to make them different from the others who import the same machines.

August 1st - John wrote "If you can wire $3324 for the 25% deposit that would be great" and I did a few days later.

August 6th - Received an email from Hurricane with an attached invoice PDF. Invoice clearly states "Ship date 09/25/2013" and payment of $3,324 made. $10,000.50 balance due. I was happy. Machine ordered.

August XX - some back and forth emails about control boards, software, coming out to train, etc... No surprises.

August 30th - In just about every email I ask about delivery. This email from John includes the line "I still anticipate delivery the week before you open. Have a great Holiday week and let me know if we can help any other way." Awesome!

August 30th - In an email, he asks when we will be wiring the rest of the money ($10,000)

September 3rd - I reply "Please give me a few more days and resend your bank info. It’s hectic around here."

September 6th - I wired the entire $10,000. Machine now paid in full.

September 9th - Email from Hurricane with an invoice, confirming zero balance. Ship date on invoice is still 09/25/13. I assume this is from LA harbor or from Las Vegas (their facility). Vegas is 4 hours max, LA Harbor is 2 hours max from us. All going smoothly. Getting excited.

[Exsecratio]

The posted receipt is missing critical details, the date is not accurate

My invoicing software also shows the initial invoice time/date and the usual 30 day time/date, if I send a second copy that shows "Paid" all the software does is marks the existing invoice with a Paid watermark. Alternatively I send a receipt showing payment received with the date on it.

Usually it would be
"Invoice" (you owe us money)
"Receipt" (you paid us money)

On a lighter note, I'm developing a Doughnut habit but the wife is going to kill me if I buy a Doughnut making machine (I already have a cotton candy maker)

cheers

Dave

[reflexx]

Gene Sherman,

Is there a addendum to your receipt stating the special order color requirement and refund specifics?
The receipt you posted does not mention any of these details.

JoeyB

JoeyB,

All the discussions of custom paint / non-refundable deposits are in emails. I have all of them. That's what I quoted in my very first posts. and remember, it's not a "custom color" it's the standard color of a G Weikei machine BEFORE they paint it green for Hurricane. So it was actually one less step for the manufacturer. There's also nothing about a guaranteed delivery date. But when a vendor reassures you and then goes silent, and then ignores you, and then lies, and on and on...

August 1st - I wired Hurricane the $3,324 (I have the bank receipt) - they received the money the next day (Friday August 2nd) - this is the date I "ordered" the machine. More than 2 months ahead of grand opening.

August 6th - Received an email from Hurricane with an attached invoice PDF. Invoice clearly states "Ship date 09/25/2013" and payment of $3,324 made. $10,000.50 balance due.

September 6th - I wired the entire $10,000. Machine now paid in full." - this is the date I paid the balance. Should have had NO effect on delivery.


Thanks for all the input & suggestions guys.

Having gone through all this, it looks like a drive to LV is in my future. Monday morning I'm calling them and seeing if I can actually get him on the phone and/or arrange a pickup (a check or a machine). I don't know if I trust him to deliver and I'm certain there will be little or no support. I'll turn to other G Weikie dealers for help if needed.

Without the money returned, I cannot afford the machine I want, from a company that is willing to be our partner. So it's a no win situation for now.


Gene S.

[reflexx]

Wire transfers are instant.....deposit = order date.

[joeybagadonuts]

Dave,

The point I am attempting to make is that the balance of funds did not transfer until September and the date of the document (invoice) is July.
Its possible that the seller did not update the date of the document along with the delivery date. (common error) no malicious intent.
If payment was made late that would push or delay the delivery date.
If the vendor uses customers funds to pay the manufacturer, late delivery makes sense.
The buyers late payment started a chain of events. In turn the seller responded and it turned ugly.
How can the buyer hold the seller accountable for specific delivery date if the buyer transferred funds late?
Most likely a court the case would be decided based upon a few simple facts.
In the mean time Gene Sherman does not have a machine or $13,000 dollars.
Now the question is can Gene Sherman find a lawyer to take this case pro bono and is he willing to gamble a pile of doughnuts.

JoeyB

[reflexx]

Emailed dated 07/25:
John answering a bunch of questions.
"If we go with a grey/white machine, how soon after ordering can I have one? We will order it with the next container but I know that the grey / white combo will not take any extra time as that is the standard color they use for all other machines. If they have trouble matching a one off color it could take extra time."


Another email dated 07/25:
"Gene,
I will be placing an order 8/5 for everyone that orders the NBM special by 8/2. We ship based on a first paid first shipped basis. roughly 3 weeks build time, 3 weeks ship time 1 week customs and 1 week assemble, test etc.
I would love to be part of your space and I am sure that our lasers will meet your customers needs and provide a greater ROI for you so that you can open more places sooner. Please check out reviews on CNCZONE.com and Sawmillcreek.org for third party thoughts if you like.
John"

Yet another email on 07/25:
"Is a 25% deposit enough to get me on the list? In the spirit of helping you get started sure thing."

and the response email on 10/08, after not showing up:
"Gene,
My apologies. Traci and I both have Strep and were out Thursday afternoon on. You laser is in LA airport and is being trucked over to me Wednesday. we can deliver it this weekend, Let me know what time works for you and your team.
John"

But a machine ordered August 1st would still make it just fine. When John finally emailed me that the machine was at LA airport, we were into week #9. Not even counting the "1 week assemble, test, etc" He must have known it was not going to make it and intentionally avoided me.

[joeybagadonuts]

Wire transfers are instant.....deposit = order date.

Gene Sherman,

Engaging in a fight or flight situation may not be productive.
A lawsuit usually is decided based upon a few simple facts, the devils advocate is a mofo!
A great lawyer might cost a ton of frosting. What are the chances of winning?
Have you recovered any of your investment yet?
Are you accomplishing anything productive with this banter?
This thread may create bigger problems for you, loose lips sink ships.
I wonder how many Generals discuss strategies in public with a megaphone.
Sitting down and discussing options over coffee and sweet roll might improve your odds.

Joey B

[Bigbird48]

Gene Monday is Veterans Day I would go on Tuesday so John has no excuse to not be there. God I hope he's not a Veteran. Probably not. If he's to scared to face his customers you can dam sure bet he'd never defend his country .
Hey its a short drive for you what 4 hours? go get your machine.

[Exsecratio]

If the vendor uses customers funds to pay the manufacturer, late delivery makes sense.

I've seen that happen quite a few times Joe, it never ends well dropshippers are the bane of the industry

cheers

Dave

[joeybagadonuts]

I'm beginning to think its a lost cause on trying to get the money back. I've heard Hurricane Laser is in some deep Financial troubles and probably spent your money already.If John Kaspar had your money and he was any kind of a decent person he would have refunded it already. Theres no guaranty that he won't sell the machine and then use that money for other purpose's . Might be best now to just take the machine, at least you'll get what you paid for. I'd go to Vegas and get it, make sure it works before you leave. Then you can do what you want with it use it or sell it what ever. You don't have to have anymore dealings with Hurricane.

Bigbird,

What happens if a decent person spends the majority of money collected to purchase a machine and does not have money to refund said machine?
Why did Gene Sherman agree to the non refundable clause, did someone bend his arm?
Decent has very little to do with a portion of this story.
Bad behavior may be fueling the current atmosphere.

JoeyB

[Bigbird48]

Bigbird,

What happens if a decent person spends the majority of money collected to purchase a machine and does not have money to refund said machine?
Why did Gene Sherman agree to the non refundable clause, did someone bend his arm?
Decent has very little to do with a portion of this story.
Bad behavior may be fueling the current atmosphere.

JoeyB

If a company is in business and they portray themselves to have hundreds of satisfied customers , offices in Las Vegas, with staff, engineers and the whole nine yards, they should be able to cover one machine . Come on dude, gessh If John said I'm a one man operation selling lasers out of my garage, but I'll give you a deal but I need the money up front, would you hand over 13k. I think Not.
If I sell anything that I make and the customer is unhappy in anyway they immediately get a full refund including their sxh plus I send them a small gift and apologize and I take the loss, not my customer.Granted I'm not selling 13k lasers but if I was I would be sure to have enough money in the bank and Ins to cover loses in case something went wrong. I'd also have a line of credit so if I had to reimburse a customer 13K I could do it and then worry about the loan. The customer should never be left hanging like this. theres no excuse NONE! whatsoever that he hasn't got a refund yet. I'm sorry you can make all the excuses for John Kaspar you want, theres still no excuse for the customer not having his money back.
I'll tell you another story happened to me justa few weeks ago. I called a company here in Phoneix was looking for parts for my laser engraver, told them what I needed was told they had it in stock. I drove 40 miles to pick it up and it was the wrong part they had.OK no biggy they took the bad part I had brought with me, measured it checked it all out said they had one in their CA. warehouse would be here in 2 days they would call when i came in. Great 2 days later they call I drive the 40 miles back down there and guess what it wrong again. I ask the guy how could that be you measured , checked it all out and they sent the wrong part again.He's very sorry, goes back to the catalog goes thru the whole process again say's I'm really sorry, we got it now, I'm going to overnight it to your house no charge, no charge for the part, and he saw me ride in on my bike , he gave me a $40 pair of Harley Sunglasses and apologized for my troubles again. You know I'm a customer for life now right, this is a company I want to do business with .

[joeybagadonuts]

If a company is in business and they portray themselves to have hundreds of satisfied customers , offices in Las Vegas, with staff, engineers and the whole nine yards, they should be able to cover one machine . Come on dude, gessh If John said I'm a one man operation selling lasers out of my garage, but I'll give you a deal but I need the money up front, would you hand over 13k. I think Not.
If I sell anything that I make and the customer is unhappy in anyway they immediately get a full refund including their sxh plus I send them a small gift and apologize and I take the loss, not my customer.Granted I'm not selling 13k lasers but if I was I would be sure to have enough money in the bank and Ins to cover loses in case something went wrong. I'd also have a line of credit so if I had to reimburse a customer 13K I could do it and then worry about the loan. The customer should never be left hanging like this. theres no excuse NONE! whatsoever that he hasn't got a refund yet. I'm sorry you can make all the excuses for John Kaspar you want, theres still no excuse for the customer not having his money back.
I'll tell you another story happened to me justa few weeks ago. I called a company here in Phoneix was looking for parts for my laser engraver, told them what I needed was told they had it in stock. I drove 40 miles to pick it up and it was the wrong part they had.OK no biggy they took the bad part I had brought with me, measured it checked it all out said they had one in their CA. warehouse would be here in 2 days they would call when i came in. Great 2 days later they call I drive the 40 miles back down there and guess what it wrong again. I ask the guy how could that be you measured , checked it all out and they sent the wrong part again.He's very sorry, goes back to the catalog goes thru the whole process again say's I'm really sorry, we got it now, I'm going to overnight it to your house no charge, no charge for the part, and he saw me ride in on my bike , he gave me a $40 pair of Harley Sunglasses and apologized for my troubles again. You know I'm a customer for life now right, this is a company I want to do business with .

Bird,

I am not making excuses for anyone, you can't get blood from a turnip.
Your expectations and experience are best case scenarios, are you confusing your experience with a horse of a different color?
Why not send the free sunglasses to Gene Sherman, he might be able to use them while working with his new laser.
By the way, I completely understand what good service is. No one is bending over to make this issue any better.

JoeyB

[Bigbird48]

Joey look at what your writing you are making excuses, go get some coffee eat some doughnuts .:devious:

[Bigbird48]

Direct quote from John Kasper posted here on czone on 1/30/2012 wow what a difference a year and a half makes

"Thank you from Hurricane Lasers!

Thank you to all of our customers and forum readers who read past these things. I apologize for even having to respond to their remarks.

We are active on the forums and communicate openly with our customers at all times.

If there are ever problems, which happen in every business, we do not cover them up we do our best to rectify the problem and satisfy our customers.

Thank you again to all and Happy New Year.

John and the Hurricane Laser Team

Weres his communication now, his open and honest, working to make his happy customers.

[reflexx]

Made the call today. John answered. Short discussion. Standby, waiting for a call back tomorrow.....

[Bigbird48]

Well Gene whats going on you said you called 4 days ago.

[reflexx]

For a moment I though John had become reasonable. I called Tuesday the 12th and he answered! He said the machine i ordered was sold & shipped. At that point I basically told him if you're going to only refund the $10,000 then get me a machine (any color) asap. If you're going to give me back the entire amount, do so and we go our separate ways. He said he would call me back "today or first thing in the morning". He didn't, he emailed late the next day instead:

11/13/13
"Gene,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner today. I am in a quandary as to what is the best path here. On one hand it would be easier to just be done with one another and on the other we always try to make things as right as possible with all of our customers. I would like to be able to ship you a machine and I am willing to order another grey one as long as you will not refuse acceptance. I will also include $3,324 credit on your account for future purchases of tubes or accessories at your discretion. This will reduce your overall cost and also allow me to deliver a unit for your use.
Let me know if you prefer green or grey and I will get it ordered for you and sent by air to us at my expense.
Thank you.
John"

This sounded promising, so I replied within a few hours:

11/13/13
"John,
At this point I would like to get ALL my money back (this week) and go our separate ways. I will consider the matter resolved, make that know to others and be silent from that point on.
If you are unwilling to do this, then I would like to know how quickly you can deliver a equivalent/new machine to me. I need one here ASAP. Color does not matter and I’ll take you up on your offer of credit on our account.
Gene S."

11/14/13
I thought that one or the other of these would be the best thing I could hope for. I figured I would hear back within a day. It was an easy reply for him. But no. No word, no reply on Wednesday.
So I called Thursday. Left a message.

11/15/13
Called Friday twice, left a message. NOTHING. I'm think that this is him stalling again and again.

11/18/13
So I called this morning and he answered. I ask him whats going on? He apologized and said he was "out" Friday. Was his phone broken too? His reply was "I can get you a machine in December" At this point this was completely unacceptable to me. I also cannot trust what he says at all, especially about deliveries. When I visited his showroom, he had 3-5 machines on the floor. I cannot imagine that there is not a machine there for the next month.

Back to the phone call. He has stalled me for 7 weeks and I think he's doing it again. I cannot possibly trust this man AT ALL! I then tell him that I want all my money back now. He reply was something like "Ten grand" Out of frustration, I say I want all of it. He says "No" I ask him to show me the amount he sold my machine for, since claims it was at a "loss". He then says "I can drag this out for a year!" I said fine then, $10,000 now. Are you going to wire it today?

HE SAYS "NO" AND HANGS UP ON ME!

Regardless of the amount, I think that he has no intentions of returning my money. He's had 7 weeks to do so. Wiring the money would have taken him 1 hour max and this would be settled. So I say again, BUYER BEWARE, and God forbid, anyone would give him any amount of money in advance. That was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made.

At this point I have no choice but to involve the BBB and the Nevada courts. He currently has several lawsuits against him, and I'll be adding mine. What a foolish way to do business. John Kaspar and Hurricane Lasers, you reap what you sow. I've made your competitors aware of what happened too. I regret not choosing one of them first. I will not make that mistake again.

[joeybagadonuts]

Gene,

What a shame, it appears that John has a few extra shekels and you have less.
Que Sera Sera,

JoeyB