[Smertrios]

A CNC ready TAIG mill is about $1000.00
Xylotex "4 axis box" ready to go with steppers about $600.00
Mach2 licence about $160
-------------------
$1760.00 a little more if I get a mill with ER-16 spindle

FYI there are 425oz steppers available on EBay (size 23). I thought these could add another 160oz of torque for faster feedrates and rapid moves over what comes with the Xylotex "box"
http://search.ebay.com/search/search...per&category0=

[rcazwillis]

I did not think I needed new motors until I saw the price. Two new motors on the way!

[ignatz]

What are your parameters?

I think this might be a better low cost setup:
HF Minimill - $375 (In Store, On Sale with coupon.)
HobbyCNC 4-axis kit - $400 (Including PS. You build it.)
X2 CNC conversion - $325 + $225 for ballscrew upgrade.
TurboCNC - $60
MeshCAM - $150

$1310 ($1535 with ballscrews)

If you design/build your own CNC conversion you might be able to save a few more bucks. You could also only choose the 3-axis kit to save more money.

[Zippi]

If you go the HF Mill route, you also end up with R-8 tooling- more choices, better availability, can use tooling on future machines.

Something about those Sherlines never thrilled me- all that ALUMINUM!!! I like my cast iron 150 lb 'lil one...

[mgamber]

What are your parameters?

I think this might be a better low cost setup:
HF Minimill - $375 (In Store, On Sale with coupon.)
HobbyCNC 4-axis kit - $400 (Including PS. You build it.)
X2 CNC conversion - $325 + $225 for ballscrew upgrade.
TurboCNC - $60
MeshCAM - $150

$1310 ($1535 with ballscrews)

If you design/build your own CNC conversion you might be able to save a few more bucks. You could also only choose the 3-axis kit to save more money.

The TAIG is NOT a Sherline, not even in the same league. It is also VASTLY superior to the X2 mill. I have owned both and I can tell you the TAIG is more rigid than the X2. Also more accurate, more travel, better spindle, better collet system (ER16), better screws... Just simply a better machine.

[Zippi]

The TAIG is NOT a Sherline, not even in the same league. It is also VASTLY superior to the X2 mill. I have owned both and I can tell you the TAIG is more rigid than the X2. Also more accurate, more travel, better spindle, better collet system (ER16), better screws... Just simply a better machine.

My apologies, I lumped them together for some reason... Must have been the ALUMINUM TABLE!!!

Let's see... Bang for the Buck... Taig CNC Mill versus my Retro'd X2.

Taig, 65 lbs manual, 85 lbs CNC'd. X2, 150 lbs manual, ?? CNC'd.
Taig CNC Mill, 30 IPM rapids. My converted X2, 240 IPM rapids.
Taig step resolution, .000125", my step resolution, .000100".
Taig structure made of steel and aluminum, mine, cast iron.
Taig has "Rigid tubular steel base and column", mine, cast iron.
Taig has "hard anodized ALUMINUM table", mine, cast iron.
Taig spindle speed, 1100 to 10k RPM, mine, 100 to 4k rpm.
Taig spindle, 1/4 hp. Mine, 4/5 hp (some say they're overrated, so I'd let you call mine 1/2 hp).
Taig Speed Control, 5 groove pulley, fixed speeds. Mine, two groove pulley, electronic variable speed (I've been leaving it on the higher speed pulleys and turning the knob to the RPM I want).
Taig has LEAD SCREWS, my conversion has ballscrews and preloaded ball nuts.
Taig has 200 oz/in steppers, mine has 640 oz/in steppers.
Stepper Drivers: Taig uses ???, mine uses Geckodrives.
Taig uses "light switch" for power behind the head (that's just funky!), mine has "slam" e-stop switch on the side of the head.
Taig uses proprietary taper spindle, mine uses R-8.

The ER-16 is an added ($$$) option! With R-8, I have all KINDS of options. The truth is, an R-8 spindle wouldn't FIT the HEAD on the Taig Mill. ER-16 on an R-8 spindle? Try this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7589817323 - it'll probably go cheaper than the ER-16 upgrade for the Taig.

Even IF you did your own stepper motors and drivers on a Taig, it wouldn't perform as well as my setup. PERIOD!!! To start, you'd have to put in 5 tpi screws!!! MORE $$$! Might as well go with ballscrews to match mine, eh? $$$...

Sure, a Taig might (and I only say that because I haven't seen them!) have better screws than a stock X2, but my retrofit cost included BALLSCREWS for my X2.

My setup was $2300, $2400-ish, a Taig CNC Mill (I'll call it "the Taig way") will run you $2155 with the ER-16 option.

You COULD get a Taig to perform as fast as my X2, but it's going to cost you more money and time. And then, you still have a Taig..... LOL!!!!

mgamber, you're comparing a CNC'd Taig to a MANUAL X2 you had, at LEAST by virtue of not considering ballscrews as part of an X2 conversion (that is, if you ever even converted your X2)...

I'm not a Taig fan, not at all... The design seems very "slapped together". They used aluminum for the table because it's cheap and easy, not because it was the best available material. They used a lightswitch for power because it was cheap and easy. Just two things that stand out. And why a proprietary spindle? TO MAKE YOU BUY MORE TOOLING- that, or it was easier, take your pick. The first time I SAW a Taig product (Lathe) was in some hobby catalog. I looked at it and thought, "What the heck is THAT? It's a MESS!". And the price for what you get? "What a joke!". And the price of the accessories? "You've got to be KIDDING!".

Taig may have been a nice product when there weren't so many competitors, but times have changed and the product hasn't.

IN ALL, ignatz' example is the most economical, I'd consider my setup a little higher priced than most would like, and Taig isn't even on the list.

[JFettig]

Zippy, you cant quote a cheap setup then give examples from yours. that 240ipm range is quite out of the picture for 99.9% of the people.

Overall, they both have their advantages. main ones for taig is that its a pretty good machine, ready for cnc and someone to back it up if something goes wrong.

Honestly, I think the x2 sucks, it has so little travel, not rigid, impossible to tram the column(Im not saying taig has any of these features) and the motor is way under powered(again, not any better with taig)

Me personally, I would go the x2 or acutally x3 route, thats because of my constraints and becuase I like to make my own retrofits, but its not always the same situation for everyone.

OH YEAH lastly, theres NO way that those steppers are 425oz-in! thats not even reasonable! before them there wasnt even 300oz-in motors around(295 available). Lets be reasonable, the likelyhood of them being properly labled is VERY low.

Jon

[Zippi]

Hey Jon,

I can't? I figured well, mgamber said "Vastly Superior", and the Taig CNC'd w/ ER-16 is $2155, so I thought I'd have a go at it... That statement struck me entirely as too ludicrous to let go of...

NONE of these machines are a (name your favorite big mill here), and I'm sure any one of those "big mill" guys would be happy to come in here and laugh at this hysterically.

But, I'd be hard pressed to find a mill like this I can pick up.... LOL!

You CAN tram the column (square it to the table) if you shim the mount (tram it front to back and shim, then left to right, then re-check). I've seen a few methods for strengthening the column, angle iron, concrete...

Take Care,
Paul

[Smertrios]

Zippi do you use Gecko 201's?
nevermind found my answer...
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13799

[Zippi]

Yep, sure do! 3 G201's and a 48v 15A Switching Power Supply (no external capacitors). I'm running these motors at slightly less than the 5.5A they're rated for (current set resistors I had available), and using the "power down when idle" mode on the G201's. I tuned the potentiometers on all of them for smooth running at low speed.

[mgamber]

My apologies, I lumped them together for some reason... Must have been the ALUMINUM TABLE!!!

At least it is a STRAIGHT ALUMINUM TABLE unlike the .007" warped on on the X2

Let's see... Bang for the Buck... Taig CNC Mill versus my Retro'd X2.

OK, Lets compare MY Taig CNC...

Taig, 65 lbs manual, 85 lbs CNC'd. X2, 150 lbs manual, ?? CNC'd.

Fill the column with Concrete... Bolt it to a big ol piece of iron... Weighs more than the X2...

Taig CNC Mill, 30 IPM rapids. My converted X2, 240 IPM rapids.

My belt reduction gets me 90ipm. SMOOTHE 90ipm. Most X2's would self destruct at that speed. I had to get the dremel tool out and grind on the way surface to even get the massive 4" of y travel on the X2. Ya quality product there...

Taig step resolution, .000125", my step resolution, .000100".

My step resolution 0.00003125. Big deal.

Taig structure made of steel and aluminum, mine, cast iron.
Taig has "Rigid tubular steel base and column", mine, cast iron.
Taig has "hard anodized ALUMINUM table", mine, cast iron.

I'll give you this. Wish they would make the saddle and table out of cast iron. But make it Quality cast iron that is STRAIGHT and smoothe unlike the X2.

Taig spindle speed, 1100 to 10k RPM, mine, 100 to 4k rpm.

Mine: ~200 rpm to 13,500 rpm

Taig spindle, 1/4 hp. Mine, 4/5 hp (some say they're overrated, so I'd let you call mine 1/2 hp).

1.5hp treadmill motor. Computer controlled spindle speed.

Taig Speed Control, 5 groove pulley, fixed speeds. Mine, two groove pulley, electronic variable speed (I've been leaving it on the higher speed pulleys and turning the knob to the RPM I want).

Ummm... Don't you mean gears? PLASTIC easily stripped gears?

Taig has LEAD SCREWS, my conversion has ballscrews and preloaded ball nuts.

Mine: 7/16" precision leadscrews from Kerk. .0001" over 12" error. Zero backlash, self lubricating.

Taig has 200 oz/in steppers, mine has 640 oz/in steppers.
Stepper Drivers: Taig uses ???, mine uses Geckodrives.

Gecko 320.

Taig uses "light switch" for power behind the head (that's just funky!), mine has "slam" e-stop switch on the side of the head.

Big red E-stop on my controller.

Taig uses proprietary taper spindle, mine uses R-8.

The ER-16 is an added ($$$) option!

You can get the mill with the ER on it, not that much more.

With R-8, I have all KINDS of options. The truth is, an R-8 spindle wouldn't FIT the HEAD on the Taig Mill. ER-16 on an R-8 spindle? Try this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7589817323 - it'll probably go cheaper than the ER-16 upgrade for the Taig.

Whatever.

Even IF you did your own stepper motors and drivers on a Taig, it wouldn't perform as well as my setup. PERIOD!!! To start, you'd have to put in 5 tpi screws!!! MORE $$$! Might as well go with ballscrews to match mine, eh? $$$...

Mine is better than yours Na Na Na Na!

Sure, a Taig might (and I only say that because I haven't seen them!) have better screws than a stock X2, but my retrofit cost included BALLSCREWS for my X2.

Now see here is the problem with your argumnent. You admit to having no experience with a TAIG.

The TAIG is smoother, more rigid (There, I said it! I could deflect the column on the X2 MORE than I can the TAIG by pushing on the spindle, measured it with a last-word indicator.) Cast iron is great if designed properly. The x2 colum to base is WEAK. The TAIG has way more travel (4"y vs. 5.5"y, 8"x vs. 12"x, 7"z vs. 6"z, your gonna need that extra Z to get that massively over size collet system for such a small machine out)

My setup was $2300, $2400-ish, a Taig CNC Mill (I'll call it "the Taig way") will run you $2155 with the ER-16 option.

Oh, mine cost more than that, but it is all in the control, also didn't spend any time with a file on the TAIG to get it to actually travel the advertised distance.

You COULD get a Taig to perform as fast as my X2, but it's going to cost you more money and time. And then, you still have a Taig..... LOL!!!!

Dude, you are really over the top here.

mgamber, you're comparing a CNC'd Taig to a MANUAL X2 you had, at LEAST by virtue of not considering ballscrews as part of an X2 conversion (that is, if you ever even converted your X2)...

Screws are not the issue. Crappy built quality is.

I'm not a Taig fan, not at all... The design seems very "slapped together". They used aluminum for the table because it's cheap and easy, not because it was the best available material. They used a lightswitch for power because it was cheap and easy. Just two things that stand out. And why a proprietary spindle? TO MAKE YOU BUY MORE TOOLING- that, or it was easier, take your pick. The first time I SAW a Taig product (Lathe) was in some hobby catalog. I looked at it and thought, "What the heck is THAT? It's a MESS!". And the price for what you get? "What a joke!". And the price of the accessories? "You've got to be KIDDING!".

Brass tapered gibs vs steel gibs that look like they were cut with a hack saw... Machine ways that look like they were fly-cut with a dull cutter, weak column to base construction... I can name as many bad points of the X2 as you are the TAIG.

Taig may have been a nice product when there weren't so many competitors, but times have changed and the product hasn't.

Ya, not changed at all (Box ways vs the old dovetail, er16 spindle vs old proprietary, 1/4hp vs old 1/8hp... Dude you don't know what you are talking about here.)

IN ALL, ignatz' example is the most economical, I'd consider my setup a little higher priced than most would like, and Taig isn't even on the list.

The thread started off discussing economical. You started arguing "better". The X2 is not the best out there. The TAIG is not the best out there. They both have strong and weak points. The TAIG will work better out-of-the-box than the X2, no question. Your retrofit seems to be pretty cool, but there are a lot of pretty cool home built conversions.

[JFettig]

hey, lets see who can piss farther....


mgamber you got a pm(speed controll)

Jon

[Zippi]

The thread started off discussing economical. You started arguing "better". The X2 is not the best out there. The TAIG is not the best out there. They both have strong and weak points. The TAIG will work better out-of-the-box than the X2, no question. Your retrofit seems to be pretty cool, but there are a lot of pretty cool home built conversions.

HAHAHA!!! * YOU * started off with "better"!!!!!! YOU said "Vastly Superior"- if you hadn't started off with that, I WOULD NOT HAVE CARRIED ON! So, NAH!

If you'd have said, "He said Taig, not Sherline.", all of this wonderful space at the Zone could have been saved!!!

The whole point being, you said the Taig is "Vastly Superior"- manual Taig, CNC X2, CNC Taig, Manual X2? At what cost? What modifications?

You're off on your reply on a number of points, but I'm REALLY not that worried about it! .007", huh? Maybe mine's that "one in a million" with a genuinely true table... Maybe someone dropped yours off a truck! SO, Nah! Mine is smooth at 90, and smooth at 240. I "COULD" go on, and on.... But WHY? You're absolutely convinced!!!

I DID actually read all that you posted, for what it's worth. You either didn't read mine, or read it doubting every word- I have a spindle belt mod, hence two pulleys, a belt, and a variable speed control. I ran mine manually for a few years, and never stripped a gear- I had read about other guys stripping gears, and learned from that.

Seriously, I'm grinning ear to ear, this is comical!

But, NO WAY am I going to buy a Taig so I can sit here and tell you what I see....

I AM curious about your modifications...

[mgamber]

HAHAHA!!! * YOU * started off with "better"!!!!!! YOU said "Vastly Superior"- if you hadn't started off with that, I WOULD NOT HAVE CARRIED ON! So, NAH!

:stickpoke

If you'd have said, "He said Taig, not Sherline.", all of this wonderful space at the Zone could have been saved!!!

Actually, it is a valid argument. These are two machines that people make choices between. Not a waste of space at all... Besides, a little friendly banter never hurts, right?

The whole point being, you said the Taig is "Vastly Superior"- manual Taig, CNC X2, CNC Taig, Manual X2? At what cost? What modifications?

Manual TAIG is Superior to the X2 and the Sherline. My opinion. :argue:

You're off on your reply on a number of points, but I'm REALLY not that worried about it! .007", huh? Maybe mine's that "one in a million" with a genuinely true table...

Wouldn't doubt it. Mine sucked. Took a lot of work to get it to run at all. Sold it on ebay and someone ended up with a very good machine (best the X2 is capable of) that works like the design intended. Still an inferior design in MANY ways.

Maybe someone dropped yours off a truck! SO, Nah! Mine is smooth at 90, and smooth at 240. I "COULD" go on, and on.... But WHY? You're absolutely convinced!!!

:banana:

I DID actually read all that you posted, for what it's worth. You either didn't read mine, or read it doubting every word- I have a spindle belt mod, hence two pulleys, a belt, and a variable speed control.

Well what confused me (and a number of other people too) was your flipping back and forth on the argument of stock X2 vs Stock TAIG and then talking about your fabulous conversion.

I ran mine manually for a few years, and never stripped a gear- I had read about other guys stripping gears, and learned from that.

Seriously, I'm grinning ear to ear, this is comical!

Glad you are still smiling! Don't want anyone mad at me for arguing with them... :cheers:

But, NO WAY am I going to buy a Taig so I can sit here and tell you what I see....

So quit bashing a product you have no experience with. (wedge)

I AM curious about your modifications...

Take a look at Nick Carters site. Lots of info there. Some outdated as I have another machine on the way...

[Smertrios]

I ordered a TAIG 2019-ER16 along with a set of collets for just under $1100.00 including the S/H from www.ktmarketing.com. Now I have to decide if I am going to use the $600 Xylotex box like I was origionally thinking or if I will use Gecko's and servo motors which will cost about 2 times as much.

Servos
3 Gecko 320s
3 heatsinks
3 fans (maybe just 1)
3 305oz servos motors (like the ones from K2CNC)
1 24v 10 amp Transformer
1 cheap multi tester for setting up the geckos (need volt meter or oscilloscope)
WIRING - not sure what I need here
CONNECTORS - not sure what I need here

My current thinking says a screw with 20 TPI will not need to be "geared down" to increase the mechanical advantage so I could install them just like I would the steppers *but* since they will rotate faster and do not loose steps I can get the extra speed I am looking for without having to try and fit lower TPI lead screws or ball screws onto the machine.

Servos at K2CNC are rated 2800rpm which would move the table at 140 IPM and 112 IPM at 2240rpm (80% of max speed). I have been reading it is unwise to use steppers at even 1000RPM unless they are "over kill" strong which immediately limits the IPM to 50.

[Smertrios]

I bought a Xylotex box as I thought the servo system would be too expensive to be worth the extra $$$ on such a small mill. Maybe I will get more speed by using pulleys!

10 tooth pulley on the lead screw
20 tooth pulley on the stepper
---------
2x speed increase more/less with other pulleys?

[Smertrios]

I did not think I needed new motors until I saw the price. Two new motors on the way!

What do you think of the stepper motors you bought?

[JFettig]

I should probably add, that I am most likely wrong about the steppers
I have heard a little more since.


Jon

[Stuff-Builder]

Smertrios,

Congrats on the Taig purchase! I also have a 2019CR and I think it's a very nice machine. I bought it because I just wanted something where I could just bolt on steppers and start making parts. I didn't want to deal with conversions and all that. But to each his own.

That giant silly dual-rant reminds me of two car owners who argue about which stock car is better - his Mustang or his Camaro. Which is fine until you find out that he has a 20 psi blower, locking rear end, and a full custom motor, while the other guy has a twin-turbo setup, carbon fiber body panels, and full drag tires. Sorta gets to an apples-to-oranges situation! Kind of amusing to read though... ;o)

From experience, my Taig will rapid at up to 180 ipm with the stock lead screws. The steppers don't like this, mind you, but it will do it. For machines this size, I would say that maximizing feed rate will pay off more than get 700 inch per second rapids. The table's only 12" long - you're not gaining that much with that 5 nanosecond traverse. Better to go from 4 ipm to 16 ipm cutting speed.

Have fun with the new mill!

Scott

[phil burman]

Some common sense in this thread at last. I don't understand this obsession with who's got the largest rapids number. I guess it just about bragging rights and not really about using the machine for anything useful.

So you take 1 second instead of 4 to get to the next machining location and then you spend 10 minutes machining instead of 5. It makes much more sense to spend your limited budget in a more balanced manner.

Its kinda like the guy who puts big fat low profile wheels and tires on his car, because it looked cool, but didn't have enogh cash leftover to actually ungrade the engine to a point where the wheels were of some use. How cool is that.

Regards
Phil (chair)

Smertrios,
I would say that maximizing feed rate will pay off more than get 700 inch per second rapids. The table's only 12" long - you're not gaining that much with that 5 nanosecond traverse. Better to go from 4 ipm to 16 ipm cutting speed.

Have fun with the new mill!

Scott