[TAProwler]

If you were to install Win 7 on the current drive that should at least work wouldn`t it ? ? I have done it in the past when transferring to new drives/computers but not with Win 8 so not 100% sure it would work

Yep, I think it would. That is one of my "lower cost" options.

Then if you have not already got one then I would suggest using an SSD drive, much faster, also would save you mountains of work if you had some software like Acronis or Norton that you could take an "image" of your drive with the Win 7 OS and then just load that "image" to the new drive, you would then have an exact replica of your original drive so should be a lot less work that way maybe ? ? ?

The SSD is a good idea. Not sure if taking an image would work in this case since it will be reinstalled on a different motherboard with different processor, etc.

[TAProwler]

I have a good idea what the basic problem is, but it's not one that's an easy fix if you can't get DWM off (and Microsoft obviously doesn't want you doing that in Win8). The good thing is you really don't need to know the details, just that Win8 and V24 don't get along.

I did manage to get the Win8 DWM off, but when I did and then ran BC V24 it would not generate the graphics for my part files. The working area of the screen stayed blank. The BC application functions all worked - just couldn't "see" anything related to my part file. In fact, the BobCAD1 file that always comes up when you first start BC also did not so up. But, I could use all of the BC functions and tools. And any BC pop up boxes also painted. Just not the part file. Weird. Anyway, important part of this whole issue is that anyone that is using BC V24 or older is going to have to keep, find, or still use a computer (at least a laptop computer) with Win7 to run their BC on.

On laptops, I know someone that uses a Dell Precision NB with V24 and Win7 as well with good success. The separate video card (nVidia in that case) is a good thing. Some of the gaming laptops can probably do it as well, although those video solutions tend to focus on DirectX instead of OpenGL and OpenGL is used by most of CAD software.

I am looking on eBay at some Dell notebooks that have dedicated graphics that are pretty cheap and come without an OS. I still have my OEM copy of Win7 that I could load onto it. They're pretty inexpensive. So, I might give that a shot. Good to know tip about the OpenGL and CAD software......vs DirectX.

Thanks for the insight.

[TAProwler]

So to the OP,if you find a fix could you post back,even if it is in a month or more????????
As more time goes by,many of us are going to be in your boat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless Windows 8 with an update suddenly does not suck.Or Windows 9 fixes 8.

Hey Jrmach, I will post what my final solution is. It will, at this point, no doubt include going back to a machine running Win7. Just not sure if I'm going to do it on the laptop I just bought, or find a different machine. Just isn't cost effective for me right now to upgrade BC or buy an expensive laptop. I'll post what works. Thanks.
R/Todd

[TAProwler]

You'll be looking for an update to the "video cards driver" for windows 8 (and again for windows 9)... It's not BobCad.

Hi BurrMan, I agree it's not BC. As you said a little farther down, V24 was written before Win8 arrived on scene. BC is not going to fix this, and I wouldn't expect them to.

They seemed to made it pretty clear in the email that I shouldn't bother them anymore with this. At least that's what I took away from the email ending with "Sorry for the inconvenience." I am happy that they at least looked into it for me, at least on a cursory level.

[TAProwler]

Actually it is BobCAD. They used a graphics programming technique that isn't supported under DWM. Lots of people did that back then. But since Vista, Microsoft has been saying "don't do that anymore". You could argue I guess that it's Microsofts fault in Win8 not having an off-switch for DWM, but no matter, BCC is where the fix will have to come from since MS isn't likely to move anytime soon now that the 'designers' have taken over and their precious "Metro" interface requires it.

I see a tectonic shift coming in the future. There may be a business opportunity for someone to write an OS that will run Windows software but can be run in a Windows XP or Win 7 environment and not on a dummied down computer system that is trying to mimic a huge android or apple smartphone device. (Which is what I make of this stupid Metro thing.) If you just want to have a computer that is a computer and not a huge point and touch app downloader - what will your choices be??? (Is that what that Linux thing does??) Why does everything have to be dummied down to the lowest IQ level?? Not that I'm all that smart, but if all you can do is point and grunt....maybe you shouldn't be using a computer!!!! OK rant over. (BTW - did I mention that I don't like Win8?)

[TAProwler]

I like my 23,it has its place and time to use,So what this means is v23 is going to suk if I get a new computer next year,of lap top design?Loading 7 the best fix?

Yup. If you have BC V24 or older and prefer not to upgrade your version of BC, then you will have a few options:
1. Keep a computer running Win7 and run your copy of BC "as administrator" with Visual Themes OFF and Desktop Composition OFF.
(I would say WinXP - but in a few more months Microsoft is going to stop writing security patches for it - it will be only be useful stand-alone and offline.)
2. Use a new computer running Win8 but has a dedicated graphics card that can be set-up to run V24 or earlier.
(This hasn't be proven yet, but BurrMan seems to think that it can be/is possible with the correct drivers.)
(This will have to be a desktop with a good graphics card or a laptop WITHOUT integrated graphics.)

[TAProwler]

Win8 requires "WDDM" drivers, which means signed-and-approved-by-Microsoft... unless he can sort out the hacks needed to get an unsigned driver onto the box... wasn't fun last I tried it during Win8 OEM development a few years ago.

We agree there's not much motivation for BCC to redo V24 (and it's not a simple quick fix), when V25 works ok with DWM, and V26 maybe better (I haven't tried it). The easiest fix might be an upgrade from V24 rather than spending hours trying to get Win8 to do something it doesn't want to.

V23 is also not going to work well with Win8.

Since I don't think I'm smart enough to "hack" anything but wood, it seems to me there are (for the average dude) two ways to go here:

A. Run BC V24 or older versions on a computer using Win7 (with the proper settings);
or
B. Upgrade to BC V25 or higher and run it on whatever you want to (when set up properly).

There, that was easy.
It only took a 4 page thread to figure out!

[TAProwler]

OK, so here is a summary of this issue so far:
A. Win8 uses a thing call DWM (Desktop Windows Manager) that controls something called Desktop Composition.
B. Desktop Composition (and therefore DWM) has to be active and running in Win8 to support this Metro Theme thing.
C. Some part of the BC V24 software (and any older version of BC) that has to do with graphics does not work with Desktop Composition.
D. Win8 does not have the options to turn off Themes and Desktop Composition (These ARE available options in Win7).
E. So, if you try to run BC V24 or older versions on Win8 - it doesn't work well. It does run, but the graphics are glitchy and puts up a lot of trash at times (like when using the select tool).

What I have done to try to get V24 to run in Win8:
1. Updated graphics driver (and adjust setting in Vision Engine Control Center) - didn't help.
2. Loaded the Areo Lite (basic) Theme into Win8 and selected it - didn't help.
3. Figured out how to turn off DWM in Win8 and started BC V24 - Ran, but had other video issues
4. Updated the Laptop BOIS - didn't help.

What else I have learned:
1. I downloaded BC V26 (trial) and installed it on Win8 - It appears to run OK on my integrated graphics driver laptop.
2. Don't buy a laptop with an integrated graphics driver.

The simplest solution options:
A. Run BC V24 (or older versions) on a computer using Win7 with:
1. Run as Administrator;
2. Disable Visual Themes;
3. Turn Desktop Composition OFF.

or;

B. Upgrade to BC V25 or higher and run it on whatever you want (when set up properly).

Hope this thread is helpful to anyone who wants to keep BCC V24 or older and finds it necessary to get a new (or different) computer.
R/Todd

[jrmach]

Thanks Todd,,what a bit of time you have on this,but most helpful.

[Trotline]

Good summation. Running CAD/CAM on a mid-range laptop is a bit of an edge case, but I know others who are doing it, so this will likely help someone out. On their behalf, thanks for being a really good guinea pig. I agree that just putting Win7 on the machine is easily the most cost effective solution for you. It's actually pretty cool that BobCAD runs at all on these integrated graphics systems, given the minimum hardware specs.

Luke

[BurrMan]

Hope you get something going TAP...............

The only caveat to the summary is to this part here:

C. Some part of the BC V24 software (and any older version of BC) that has to do with graphics does not work with Desktop Composition.

"On some lower end integrated graphics systems".........

HOPEFULLY though, things will change with windows direction. They made some significant changes with 8.1 from 8, trying to address this. I think they will recognize it's not time to move everything over to a phone/pad/touch yet......

Anyway........

[shred]

Another option would be to run a 'Virtual Machine' with Windows 7 in it on a Win8 machine and then run BC in that. Not a great option since performance is lost with the VM, and graphics suffers but its there...

After years of banging my head against the Microsoft wall of "we know what's best for you" (AFAIK, _all_ of the major PC companies told Microsoft that getting rid of the Start button and requiring boot into the new Metro UI was a stupid idea a year before Win8 came out), I'm not optimistic they'll fix it, but if they keep losing market share and keep getting complaints, maybe they will... So get complaining everyboody