[Bob La Londe]

Alrighty then... I will be in a market for a new machine soon. I already have my Hurco for heavy work. I want a machine with a high speed spindle. The Torus has the best deal in hardware and envelope, but a 5K max spindle is not enough. The Tormach's 10K spindle is better, but the hardware comparison doesn't add up. The Syil X4 or X5 in the Speedmaster configuration is getting there with their 24K spindle (or optional 35K) spindle but the work envelope is just a bit too small.

I don't want to run a companion spindle (flex, setup, service life, etc). I don't want to run a speed multiplier (flex, cost, not fast enough for the price).

Right now I do high speed stuff on a Taig. I'm not kidding. I put a router motor on it and let it fly. It will remove material at a faster rate than just about anything else with tiny cutters.The Taigs problem is it just isn't up to high duty cycle and long cycle times. I need to take it apart and adjust about every 4-6 hours of cut time to maintain passable tolerances.

Wadda ya do? I can't afford a Haas or Fadaal.

What I want is something about the size of a Torus with a 24K-35K ER spindle and the weight and stability of a cast iron machine. I'm almost at the point of trying to build a concrete filled steel machine.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Bob,

I don't know of any machines with good, high-speed spindles, other than expensive ones. If you can't spend the money, I think a companion spindle is your only real option. Bolted to the head of a Torus Pro or Pulsar with a well-designed quick-release bracket, I'd bet it would be the equal of anything out there, and costs on the spindles and VFDs are coming down quickly. If you're making money with the machine, even if you have to replace the spindle once a year, at only a few hundred $, you're still money ahead.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Trotline]

Have you looked into the Skyfire SVM-0? he offers a high speed spindle option, as I recall. The envelope is a tad smaller than the Torus, but the price is substantially less. It's a new product, but a couple of 'Zoners are going to be taking delivery shortly, so there should be some feedback to look at soon. The manufacturer's build thread has been very interesting to follow. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...nning_end.html

[Bob La Londe]

Bob,

I don't know of any machines with good, high-speed spindles, other than expensive ones. If you can't spend the money, I think a companion spindle is your only real option. Bolted to the head of a Torus Pro or Pulsar with a well-designed quick-release bracket, I'd bet it would be the equal of anything out there, and costs on the spindles and VFDs are coming down quickly. If you're making money with the machine, even if you have to replace the spindle once a year, at only a few hundred $, you're still money ahead.

Regards,
Ray L.

The only companion spindle solution I have really seriously considered is building a Z^2 and bolting it to the side of the Hurco. Once I calculated the offset I might even be able to swap spindles on the fly during a job. I really just want to keep the Hurco as a dedicated heavy cutting machine with its 96 - 3600 spindle . (I do have a 6:1 10K max speed multiplier for it, but flex does start to add up once you get everything hanging off the quill.

[Bob La Londe]

Have you looked into the Skyfire SVM-0? he offers a high speed spindle option, as I recall. The envelope is a tad smaller than the Torus, but the price is substantially less. It's a new product, but a couple of 'Zoners are going to be taking delivery shortly, so there should be some feedback to look at soon. The manufacturer's build thread has been very interesting to follow. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...nning_end.html

Interesting, but its working envelope is even smaller than the Syil X4 or X5.

SkyFire - http://www.skyfirecnc.com/picshow.asp?id=13
Travel Range (X Y Z): 250mm×140mm×200mm / 10”×5.5”×8”

Syil America Site - http://syilamerica.com/machine_x4speed.php?view=ts
X Travel 11" Y Travel 6.3" Z Travel 10.6"

If you do a currency conversion the price is 5974 to 6895, but I didn't compare more than working envelope. There may be other mechanical differences.

Yes, I have looked at it.

[jeffrey001]

Could you buy a Torus pro without spindle and build an adapter to fit a high speed spindle inside the head?

Could probably cost around $1000.00 for the high speed spindle and VFD.

Jeff

[Bob La Londe]

Could you buy a Torus pro without spindle and build an adapter to fit a high speed spindle inside the head?

Could probably cost around $1000.00 for the high speed spindle and VFD.

Jeff

I have thought about something along those lines. Just this morning I was wondering if it would be possible to knock the quill out of my old RF 30 (just for test purposes... its not up to what I want to do) and make a replacement quill containing a 3 phase spindle/motor.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Once I calculated the offset I might even be able to swap spindles on the fly during a job.

No need to calculate anything, and no need for any special G-code, except calling the right fixture at the right time. Use one fixture offset for the main spindle, another fort the companion spindle. Use a probe and touch-off to set the offsets. If you don't want the companion spindle on the machine when it's not in use, make it removable, and just put a G0 in the G-code following a (MSG, ....) comment when you need the spindle installed or removed.

Regards,
Ray L.

[jid2]

Just something to note about fast spindles, they need to be very well balanced. Our 16k spindle at work was balanced on the machine once it was installed and in place. It was done with an expensive laser and sensor based balancer that was mounted to the machine, and then weight was shifted both mid spindle and at the nose. Then you need to run balanced holders. A good holder is rated at 20K, past that things get really challenging.

But high speeds are sweet, so I say go for it.

[zaebis]

Could you buy a Torus pro without spindle and build an adapter to fit a high speed spindle inside the head?

Could probably cost around $1000.00 for the high speed spindle and VFD.

Jeff

That is what I did. Just whip up a holder to high speed dremel and bolt it to the head when needed. You will have to start it by hand but no biggie.

[rlockwood]

That is what I did. Just whip up a holder to high speed dremel and bolt it to the head when needed. You will have to start it by hand but no biggie.

Relay + unused M-code..?

[Bob La Londe]

Relay + unused M-code..?

Yeah, starting a spindle is no big deal. I'ld probably use the same M3/M5 codes with different outputs and just have two machine profiles if I went with a companion spindle. I don't want a companion spindle machine though. I want a dedicated high speed machine. Making or modifying one is not a huge deal breaker. I was hoping somebody would pop up and say, "Oh, yeah. The Torus has a high speed spindle option..." LOL.

[rlockwood]

Yeah, starting a spindle is no big deal. I'ld probably use the same M3/M5 codes with different outputs and just have two machine profiles if I went with a companion spindle. I don't want a companion spindle machine though. I want a dedicated high speed machine. Making or modifying one is not a huge deal breaker. I was hoping somebody would pop up and say, "Oh, yeah. The Torus has a high speed spindle option..." LOL.

I'd consider upgrading the bearings in the novakon cartridge, shoot for around 12-15k. Keep ATC/PDB capability, best of all worlds?

I guess, depending on how high-speed you're really looking for.. once you get much over 15k, you're probably better off looking at router based machines, as its not as though the chassis will see any load.

[bhurts]

How large are the tools you want to run at high speeds? Also what is the max rpm you are looking to run at?

Ben

[Bob La Londe]

.125-.0393 or less 20-30k.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Bob,

You do realize running any tool at those speeds, but most especially very small tools, you'll need to be using tool holders that are balanced for those speeds. Those won't be cheap....

Regards,
Ray L.

[Bob La Londe]

Bob,

You do realize running any tool at those speeds, but most especially very small tools, you'll need to be using tool holders that are balanced for those speeds. Those won't be cheap....

Regards,
Ray L.

Actually, I have thousands of hours running at those kinds of speed with tools that small on mini desktop machines. I don't typically use tool holders for those, but ER collets. I have had to make a few bushings on the lathe for sizes I don't have collets for and yes those tools in my home made bushings do seem to wear out faster. I am looking for something better in the base machine than my desktop minis. I was hoping to find one already setup with a high speed spindle. After quite a lot of searching so far the only thing I have found is the Syil Speedmaster(s). They are a little on the small side for working envelope. Smaller than my Taig, and they only have an ER11 spindle nose.

For lower speed heavy milling I already have a much bigger machine. I have the limits on the Hurco set at 24x13. So far I haven't been able to even slow down the spindle on that machine without stalling the servos (they are big servos) and tripping a fault. LOL.

I have a niche where high speed is key to reasonable material removal rates. The feed even at those high speeds is actually quite slow. Slower than you might expect, but calculations back it up. Attached is an example. It was roughed out with larger cutters and then finished with a .0625 ball mill. This was a rather short job taking about 5 hours (per side) at 32000 rpm with a wood router and Precise Bits collets.

Anyway, it looks like the Novakon is only a candidate for my needs with modification or a companion spindle. Thanks for all the help guys.

[rlockwood]

I'm sure they're too pricey, but look at Datron.. maybe there is something similar and more affordable? If the taig is basically working, maybe modify it to use linear ways.

[Bob La Londe]

I'm sure they're too pricey, but look at Datron.. maybe there is something similar and more affordable? If the taig is basically working, maybe modify it to use linear ways.

Oh yeah. Some of the Datron machines are incredible. I have watched every one of their videos on YouTube. In fact it was one of their videos (nolonger available) showing one of their machines cutting out a button panel that inspired me to start learning more about using high speed spindles. I was totally floored with how fast it zipped through the job. They were doing work that could have only been done faster on a punch press.

The Taig is an option, and I can buy the base machine without a spindle pretty cheap. Heck their spindle isn't even very expensive and its pretty darn good for what it is. I have studied their spindle and its primary speed limitation is friction heat from the rubber seal on the lower bearing. Their biggest problem is the weight and leverage of that offset motor. It is something to explore in the future maybe. The Taig is one of the best machines out there in its size and price class with a XiMotion maybe being close behind.

I am also looking at some of the cast iron fixed gantry routers. Unfortunately they have to be imported.

[awerby]

If you're looking for something a little bigger, heavier and more precise than the Taig, you might check out the ACT DMC III. It's a fixed-gantry machine that runs on square rails and uses ball-screws. It can be ordered with an ER-11 spindle that goes up to 24k RPM, or you can put an NSK spindle on it if you need more speed than that. It's pretty reasonably priced considering it's built in the USA with high-quality components, but I can offer it without the control system for considerably less, if you're willing to fit it with your own CNC system.

Nice fish, by the way - is that a mold for a lure?

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com