[keithmcelhinney]

Yeah it has a LOT more travel than the switches allow.

[kvom]

On my NM200 the indicated spindle speed is way off. I had to get one of those laser tachometers from eBay to measure the actual speed, and then modify the M6 macro to translate the S value. Not sure if a servo spindle could have the same issue though.

[Titaniumboy]

I did break in the spindle. Don't recall precisely how I did it, but I think I ran it for about 30 minutes at 500 RPM and then another 30 at about 1500 RPM. A final 30 at full speed would not hurt and I am pretty sure I did that too. I kept check the temperature of the head and it didn't change much. It did warm up some, but that is expected.

I broke-in the spindle yesterday and was pleased with the results.

30 minutes at 500 RPM ........(VFD 342 RPM)
30 minutes at 1500 RPM ......(VFD 1025 RPM)
30 minutes at 3000 RPM ......(VFD 1697-1705 RPM)
30 minutes at 4000 RPM ......(VFD 2662-2710) ..............(motor temperature 140-146 deg F)
20 minutes at 4500 RPM ......(VFD 299?-3069 RPM) ......(motor temperature 152-159 deg F)


I e-mailed John about the rattle noise in the gearbox, but haven't heard back yet.


i see that the Pulley 1 limits in Mach are set at 4500 RPM. I'm wondering what is the physical limiting factor to pushing the RPM higher:

- Spindle AC Servo Motor? I don't see a nameplate on the motor so I'm not sure what the motor rpm is rated.

- Servo drive?

- Spindle bearings?

- Other?

On my NM200 the indicated spindle speed is way off. I had to get one of those laser tachometers from eBay to measure the actual speed, and then modify the M6 macro to translate the S value. Not sure if a servo spindle could have the same issue though.

The laser tachometers on eBay look like a good idea. Price is right at under $20 - maybe even under $15 - delivered.


Titaniumboy

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you're hearing a "rattle" from the spindle, I strongly suggest you remove the spindle cartridge from the head, and disassemble it to find out where it's coming from. It's quite simple to remove and disassemble. You may well find one of the bearing retainers has come loose. I had this happen on my (pre-production) Pulsar mill, and one day the spindle simply locked up solid. Less than an hour later I was back in business.

As for the inaccurate spindle speeds - there are VFD settings that will correct that. You need to adjust the lower and upper limits for the control voltage. Then, if you want to get it even closer (which is really not necessary....) you can add a correction table to Mach3.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Titaniumboy]

set up the soft limits in mach. I just did this so if you have any questions, email me at [email protected]. Just search on setting soft limits in mach in google and it is pretty straight forward.

Keith, sounds like a good idea. Did you set up your Mach soft limits so that you had further travel than home switches? It looks like my Torus has at least 1/2" of travel beyond the home switches.

Did some more exploration in Mach this morning. I could have partially avoided my hard hits on all the axis direction yesterday if I had noticed the "Soft Limits" button just below the DRO readouts on the main screen.

It looks like Soft Limits has already been setup, but I can see that what is entered is not correct and would not have kept me from hitting the X+ direction hard.

	Rev	Soft Max	Soft Min	Home Neg
X	x	22.40	0	x
Y		7.60	0	x
Z		0	-11.0

The Y soft max is the closest to being correct, but even that is about 1/4" away from where Novakon set the unused adjustable "stop". The X soft max is completely boogered as the Torus max X travel is only 14.75" per their specs, and probably closer to 13-1/2" looking at the adjustable "stops".

I'm now wondering why there is the three additional "stops" on the X Y Z axis since they are not used in the homing operation? Maybe those three additional "stops" are there in case one decides to change where the homing operation occurs. For example, my Torus homes so that the Z goes to the highest elevation, and the table goes all the way right and closest to the column. At school all the machines were set up so that the table homed so that it was centered and farthest away from the column; this was so the workpiece on the table was easy to access by the operator.

I'm in the process of taking off the way covers so I can better judge where to set the hard and soft limits. I'm glad I'm doing this because I found a lot of cosmoline over all of the ways that wasn't visible with the way covers attached. I also was able to get some way oil on the ways and ballscrews with the way covers removed. I should have the oiler repaired by tomorrow.

We always ran a warmup program at school when the mills were first turned on. The warmup ran about 15 minutes or so, and had the table and head going back and forth over their full range of motion, while the spindle was started slow and ramped up to full speed. Does anyone have a similar warmup program already setup for Mach that they're willing to share?

Titaniumboy

[Titaniumboy]

If you're hearing a "rattle" from the spindle, I strongly suggest you remove the spindle cartridge from the head, and disassemble it to find out where it's coming from. It's quite simple to remove and disassemble. You may well find one of the bearing retainers has come loose. I had this happen on my (pre-production) Pulsar mill, and one day the spindle simply locked up solid. Less than an hour later I was back in business.

Ray, removing the spindle sounds kind of scary. I'm thinking (hoping !) that the sound might be coming from the pulleys or belt assembly, but I'm not sure how to get access. I'm sure it will become apparent once I get into it.

As for the inaccurate spindle speeds - there are VFD settings that will correct that. You need to adjust the lower and upper limits for the control voltage. Then, if you want to get it even closer (which is really not necessary....) you can add a correction table to Mach3.

I have no idea if the spindle speed is accurate or not. Checking it out will give me an excuse to buy one of those eBay laser tachometers. Do you know whether the difference between the VFD reading and the Mach spindle speed is due to different size pulleys on the motor and spindle?


Titaniumboy

[kvom]

On my older machine I suspect that the VFD is not configured correctly, so that the commanded speeds are way off. I used a tachometer to measure actual speed vs. the M3S value for multiple speeds for 500 to 4000. I determined that the actual spindle speed was ~2.68 what the S value commanded. I got mach3 to do the adjustment as follows:

1) edit the file spindlespeed.m1s located in the directory for the profile to be used.

2) My code is as follows:

rpm=GetRPM()
setSpinSpeed(rpm / 2.68)

So now the spindle is quite close to the speed I set with the S word. However, the value displayed on the mach3 run screen is lower by a factor of 2.68. So if I type an RPM on that screen and click the spindle button, the actual RPM is 2.68 times higher. Normally the only time I use this method is running an edge finder, and I enter 400 to get a bit faster than 1K rpm.

[Novakon]

Here is a little more insight of the Torus and Pulsar spindle operation.

The drive signals to the spindle motor from Mach3 are the step and direction signals. There are no translations into a variable DC like is done on the Torus PRO. This means the accuracy of the spindle RPM is within a few RPM. The spindle servo motor has a normal operating RPM range of 1-3000 while the spindle can operate between 1-4500 RPM. The servo driver's internal electronic transmission is used to compensate for the 1.5:1 pulley ratio. You will notice on the servo driver display that it will display an RPM 2/3's of the actual spindle RPM DRO. This is due to the electronic transmission programming. Mach3's speed DRO will read the actual spindle RPM. Mach3's spindle "steps per" and "rapids" are set for optimum values for use with the servo driver electronic transmission. There are almost infinite combinations of settings that can work between Mach3 and the servo driver to achieve the same result. The parameters chosen allow the spindle to be used for free running and rigid tapping using one transmission ratio. The Torus has rigid tapping capability. The only difference between the production Pulsars and the Torus spindle is the new Pulsar BOB will switch between two electronic transmissions for spindle "free running" and rigid tapping. This new capability gives us more flexibility with the two operating modes.

As we do more tweaking with the Pulsar parameters, The setting for the Torus may be changed also in time. It is just a simple matter to program the servo driver and Mach3 setting.

We hope this gives some insight to the servo spindle operation.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[Titaniumboy]

Novakon,

Thanks for the information on the Torus and Pulsar spindle operation.

Mach3's speed DRO will read the actual spindle RPM.

Mach 3 is not displaying the actual spindle speed for me. I don't see a tachometer in the pulley box for spindle speed feedback?

The only difference between the production Pulsars and the Torus spindle is the new Pulsar BOB will switch between two electronic transmissions for spindle "free running" and rigid tapping.

Do you have any details or info on the BOB used in my Torus? I'm not sure how to switch between free-running and rigid-tapping modes. Or how I should use the rigid-tapping mode. Also BOB info would be useful when I need to bring additional inputs and outputs to the BOB.

----------------------

When I looked inside the pulley box, I saw that the spindle timing pulley has 37 teeth and the motor timing pulley has 58 teeth. Not quite a 1.5:1 ratio, but close at 1.57:1. Or I could be wrong and should be using actual pulley diameters inside of number of pulley teeth to calculate the pulley ratio. I couldn't see any markings on the two timing pulleys, but the timing belt had "HTD540-5M" on it. This means that the timing belt has a 5 mm pitch and is 540 mm outside circumference. I measured the timing belt width at 17 mm.

Why couldn't I increase the maximum speed up from 4500 RPM by installing 1) a larger motor pulley, 2) a smaller spindle pulley, or 3) both a larger motor pulley and a smaller spindle pulley? Or even install dual speed pulleys so that I could keep the original pulley ratio but be able to change to a higher speed pulley ratio? It would be great to be able to get the maximum speed up to 6000 or 7000 RPM.

Titaniumboy

[Novakon]

Mach 3 is not displaying the actual spindle speed for me. I don't see a tachometer in the pulley box for spindle speed feedback?

You are correct. The speed we were referring to was the entered RPM in the Mach3 screen. The Torus does not have feed back spindle speed monitoring.

Do you have any details or info on the BOB used in my Torus? I'm not sure how to switch between free-running and rigid-tapping modes. Or how I should use the rigid-tapping mode. Also BOB info would be useful when I need to bring additional inputs and outputs to the BOB.

As long as you do not have the 4th axis option, the switching between spindle and rigid tapping is automatic. The switch for the selection on the BOB should be in the "tapping mode" ON position. In this mode, the BOB will default to the rigid tapping mode and when there is "spindle speed" activity, the BOB switches to select the spindle output pins. You will also notice the keyboard "hot keys" are programed to manually turn the spindle by using the "F" and "R" keys as forward and reverse. The Mach3 MPG attributes (TAB) work to control rapids and single stepping for alternate controls of the spindle rotation. (use the 4th axis jog controls for this mode) This can be handy for user specific custom needs. More details for the BOB is being integrated into the PULSAR manual and will be available shortly as a BOB specification sheet.

When I looked inside the pulley box, I saw that the spindle timing pulley has 37 teeth and the motor timing pulley has 58 teeth. Not quite a 1.5:1 ratio, but close at 1.57:1. Or I could be wrong and should be using actual pulley diameters inside of number of pulley teeth to calculate the pulley ratio. I couldn't see any markings on the two timing pulleys, but the timing belt had "HTD540-5M" on it. This means that the timing belt has a 5 mm pitch and is 540 mm outside circumference. I measured the timing belt width at 17 mm.

Why couldn't I increase the maximum speed up from 4500 RPM by installing 1) a larger motor pulley, 2) a smaller spindle pulley, or 3) both a larger motor pulley and a smaller spindle pulley? Or even install dual speed pulleys so that I could keep the original pulley ratio but be able to change to a higher speed pulley ratio? It would be great to be able to get the maximum speed up to 6000 or 7000 RPM.

Good observation. The ratio we use is more an approximation for simplicity in discussion. The true ratio is calculated from the number of teeth of the two pulleys. The settings of the servo driver transmission takes all this into account, so it is transparent. The decision to use this ratio was derived from the physical space available inside the spindle head and the amount of torque applied to the spindle. The power of the servo motor is significant and to properly transfer the motor torque to the smaller pulley, the diameter and the number of teeth engaging the drive belt is a factor. There is not much room to enlarge the motor pulley and the size of the smaller spindle pulley can't be reduced for practical reasons. To make the ratio any larger would also limit the maximum size that can be tapped due to loss of available torque delivered to the spindle.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[Titaniumboy]

Well, two steps forward and one step back. I finally installed the oiler parts that Novakon had sent me under warranty. The issue was that there were large leaks at the inlet and outlet of the oiler manifold located in the column. The metal-covered flex oil lines were coming in at an odd angle and so the compression fittings had not sealed properly. Novakon sent me a couple of 90 degree fittings and new compression inserts to fix the problem.

Installing the compression inserts over the plastic oil line wasn't working - they just would not go on. I eventually discovered there was a large burr on the inside diameter of the compression inserts. I used a series of my gage pins as a makeshift way of opening up the ID. This allowed me to get the new parts assembled. Not a lot of fun as the working space in the column is limited at best.

Success! No more leaks at the column oil manifold.

Bummer! The oiler handle still goes down in under a minute. I discovered what looks like a new oil leak under the table.

So I assume I have to take off the table in order to find and fix the oiler problem under the table. Any tips or tricks or advice on removing the table and then reinstalling the table later? I should probably measure the backlash of the table now so I know what to shoot for during reassembly.

Titaniumboy

[hjl4]

Everytime I read a post about someone having bought a new machine, there seems to always be a little problem encountered here or there with the Novakon's . Maybe it's because you only hear the problems that some are going thru. This fall we are replacing or should I say upgrading to a Pro with servos, if everything goes according to plan, but I really don't want to have to spend anytime having to repair a supposedly new machine.
I don't know about you, but for me, NEW=tested and certified before leaving the distribution center. I really don't believe all this damage BS during transportation. I drove a truck for a year (flat deck), and believe me, you take care of your load and the last thing you want is a claim.
The manufacturer should never have oil lines that are so tight that they break or stretch out during transportation. Reading this has me worried that buying a Pro will = 1 to 2 weeks for setup. I just don't have that much time. This is not a large VMC or monster mill where you can expect all this. Such a small mill yet all the large mill issues? You got me worried Novakon.

[FineLineAuto]

Everytime I read a post about someone having bought a new machine, there seems to always be a little problem encountered here or there with the Novakon's . Maybe it's because you only hear the problems that some are going thru. This fall we are replacing or should I say upgrading to a Pro with servos, if everything goes according to plan, but I really don't want to have to spend anytime having to repair a supposedly new machine.
I don't know about you, but for me, NEW=tested and certified before leaving the distribution center. I really don't believe all this damage BS during transportation. I drove a truck for a year (flat deck), and believe me, you take care of your load and the last thing you want is a claim.
The manufacturer should never have oil lines that are so tight that they break or stretch out during transportation. Reading this has me worried that buying a Pro will = 1 to 2 weeks for setup. I just don't have that much time. This is not a large VMC or monster mill where you can expect all this. Such a small mill yet all the large mill issues? You got me worried Novakon.

For what it's worth mine setup with hardly any hassle. Sure, they could do some things better, but it's pretty good overall. I know that when I did my research, people that bought the other brand machine in this class had their share of issues as well. I know that they are selling many more machines than build logs posted here, so we probably don't know the number of folks that had issues.


Nate
Fine Line Automation
Home - Fine Line Automation

[hjl4]

Glad to hear that FineLine, but seriously, 13k for a machine and then you still have to tighten and set things up before using? I know they are built in China or whatever overseas, but Novakon should at the bare minimum have quality control over what goes out the door. Short oil lines?, that's unacceptable. I am an engineer and where I work this practice would get you in hot water. If Novakon can't deliver a ready to go package, they should at least say so before a purchase is made. My boss is dead set on Novakon. But, not every one has the time to go over such little things that will lead to big problems down the road. I expect a machine that after 3 days is making chips, which in a production environment = money. If this Pro is a hobby mill, then by all means, declare it on the website. In this economy, 13K is not something to sneeze at. As for the other similar mill from T.....ch, we looked at it and it doesn't look like it would fit the bill for us. Novakon is lucky I wasn't the guy leading the support team, as this oiling problem is unacceptable. I mean how can you keep your chin up when major things such as that are staring at you in the face.
I know Ray and Leeway have had a good experience, and I always look at their posts just to stay abreast of all the potential problems that the Novakon mills may have. It's interesting to read about the successes they have with it.
If quality control is second nature at Novakon, maybe we'll just have to purchase a good used Fadal or similar.
Just my thoughts and concern.

[LeeWay]

Mine is now about 11 months old. I have had pretty good results from it. There were a few very minor issues from the start. Coolant leaks where the machine is bolted to the stand. (Silconed) Lack of large enough coolant drain. (old style cabinet, added a bath sink drain.) No cover over the X stepper. (Added a stainless steel plate to existing holes.) Bellows on Z gave up after about 8 months of use. Made some simple stainless steel Z covers.) Daily use. Average 7 hours a day I would say. 5 days a week.
Now I had a stepper drive replaced under warranty. I also keep a good spare on hand. I do that for all my machines though. I had Novakon send another cable and optical sensor for one that was faulting out. Neither of these were Novakon's fault, but Kudo's for speedy replacement.

I have had zero issues with the oiler. My dist. block in the column was bone dry a couple weeks back when I installed the Z covers.

All in all I consider it and Novakon's support to be an excellent value. When I get this one paid off, I will be ordering a full blown one with all the goodies.

[hjl4]

Thanks Leeway, I didn't mean to steer this thread in a different direction. I truly am sorry if that's what has occurred, but I just had to comment. I'm glad that you have put your machine through it's paces, and that counts for me to know that it can run an 8 hr shift, 5 days a week. The machine repaying 13K won't take us a year, more like 3 months. But nevertheless, dependability is a must. We have other machines and we're just looking for a cheap fill in machine. We do molds and one off jobs here, and you know how that can get expensive quick. The next major hurdle is always machine dependability. Like I said, my boss is really into this Pro with servos, but he's not the one making the final call, or the one who will be running it. So for what it's worth, I appreciate your honesty. Good day.

[LeeWay]

No worries. I was just recapping my experience. The size and performance of the Torus that I received would be difficult to find elsewhere, especially given the cost. My Torus was considerably less than a Pro version, but probably every bit as dependable. I don't push my machine, but Ray certainly does at times. I honestly do not think you can get a better value for the money and these are quite capable machines.

[Titaniumboy]

Everytime I read a post about someone having bought a new machine, there seems to always be a little problem encountered here or there with the Novakon's . Maybe it's because you only hear the problems that some are going thru. This fall we are replacing or should I say upgrading to a Pro with servos, if everything goes according to plan, but I really don't want to have to spend anytime having to repair a supposedly new machine.
I don't know about you, but for me, NEW=tested and certified before leaving the distribution center. I really don't believe all this damage BS during transportation. I drove a truck for a year (flat deck), and believe me, you take care of your load and the last thing you want is a claim.
The manufacturer should never have oil lines that are so tight that they break or stretch out during transportation. Reading this has me worried that buying a Pro will = 1 to 2 weeks for setup. I just don't have that much time. This is not a large VMC or monster mill where you can expect all this. Such a small mill yet all the large mill issues? You got me worried Novakon.

hjl4,

I don't expect CNC mills of this price range to come without some teething problems. There is no way that Novakon can do very much testing or work on these machines without the price going up substantially.

I didn't post about the oiler problems to bash Novakon; rather I was looking for help to get my table removed by those who had done it before. I've removed the table before from my G0704 mill, but that mill didn't have ballscrews or stepper motors attached.

I think that going over a Novakon mill (and Tormach for that matter) before committing it to production work would be prudent. Things like removing cosmoline, tightening electrical connections, checking that way oil is going where it needs to go, pulley belt tightness, etc. Honestly I would be checking a new Haas or Hurco VMC for the same things also, although a Haas or Hurco would normally have a technician out for a half day or day doing these kind of commissioning things. A Haas or Hurco can have all sorts of little issues when first delivered, but you just don't normally see these problems because the tech has already taken care of it for you. Of course a tech for a half day or full day isn't exactly free.

I have had zero issues with the oiler. My dist. block in the column was bone dry a couple weeks back when I installed the Z covers.

How long does it take the oiler handle to hit bottom after you have pulled it?

Out to the shop to take backlash measurements before I tackle the table removal...

Titaniumboy

[LeeWay]

I would say less than a minute. That doesn't mean the oil isn't getting where it needs to though. We pull the handle 3 or 4 times a day at least. It is mounted right behind my butterfly impact for the draw bar, so very convenient for us there. When I first removed the defective Z bellows, there was oil on the ways and screw where it should have been. I have not taken the table apart though, but did inspect where I could and it looked to be getting good oil there as well.

[Titaniumboy]

My oiler handle is going down in under a minute also. When you pull the oiler handle, do you get any pooling of oil under the table that then drips down the saddle onto the chip tray?

When I went out just now to start the backlash measurements, I see that the oiler reservoir is down a good 1/4" from last night and there is oil down on the chip tray. It appears that there is some siphoning action going on. Do you see any oil siphoning with your mill?