[LeeWay]

None at all. I see only oil on the ways and screws. None ever makes it to the chip tray. Sounds like you still have an issue or two with it.

[Titaniumboy]

LeeWay, thanks for sharing your observations on your Torus. I guess the table is coming off.

On another note, I'm ecstatic with my backlash testing. I set up a .001" dial indicator with a magnetic back (normally used at the lathe for measuring carriage travel) on the front of the Torus head. I then set up an Enco angle plate on the table. I then jogged the head in the X+ direction until the dial indicator tip touched the angle plate. Setting the step jog mode in Mach 3 to 0.100" I verified that the mill actually moves .100" when commanded. Pretty darn cool.

I then set the step jog mode to 0.0001" (tenths) and started jogging in X- (reverse). I didn't see the dial indicator needle move until the Mach 3 X readout was .0005". Man, I can sure live with half a thou of backlash!! Also very cool to see that it takes 10 jogs of .0001" to move .001" on the dial indicator.

I didn't do any testing yet on Y or Z backlash. I just wanted to be sure what I should expect for backlash on X once the table gets reinstalled.

Titaniumboy

[Hirudin]

Was your machine set to 10,000 steps per inch resolution from the beginning? I'm 90% sure mine was set to 1,000 steps per inch.

I've since changed it, I just wish I didn't have to.

[Titaniumboy]

Was your machine set to 10,000 steps per inch resolution from the beginning? I'm 90% sure mine was set to 1,000 steps per inch. I've since changed it, I just wish I didn't have to.

I have not touched any steps per inch resolution settings in Mach 3. I'll check later tonight to see what the factory settings are. I have to leave now to attend my "History of Rock and Roll" class.


I was able to remove the table this afternoon. I can post pictures if anyone is interested. The photo below of the saddle is not my photo, but is from Air_GuNNeR's "New NM-145 rebuild thread".

The major oil leak is coming from the left Y axis oil circuit where it enters the saddle (leftmost of the five inline circuits on the manifold). There is also a minor oil leak at the right Y axis oil circuit where it enters the saddle (middle circuit of the five inline manifold circuits). Now that I see where the problem is, I don't know how to fix it. I'm not sure how the two Y-axis circuits are supposed be sealed where they enter the saddle. Normally I would expect some kind of tapped hole with a fitting like what was used for the two X-axis circuits on the left side of the saddle.

Attachment 231470


Titaniumboy

[hjl4]

Titaniumboy,

hjl4,

I don't expect CNC mills of this price range to come without some teething problems. There is no way that Novakon can do very much testing or work on these machines without the price going up substantially.

It's called a pre delivery inspection.

I didn't post about the oiler problems to bash Novakon; rather I was looking for help to get my table removed by those who had done it before. I've removed the table before from my G0704 mill, but that mill didn't have ballscrews or stepper motors attached.

Neither am I, just concerned how you seem to think that removing the table is normal.

Things like removing cosmoline, tightening electrical connections, checking that way oil is going where it needs to go, pulley belt tightness, etc.

All part of the predelivery inspection.

I guess if you bought a new car, it would be OK for the drive belt to be loose and wipers not working.
It's just plain unacceptable. Whether you paid $3000 or $20K it's wrong. Novakon is a good machine from what the spec sheet says, and from the reviews of a few in this forum, but come on. And to compare it to a Haas or Hurco?

Like I said , and I don't mean to sound over demanding, or unrealistic, but it's not normal to go so deep on a new machine. Yes it's good that Novakon support is there. Did you ever ask them why the oil lines are so short or so poorly routed? Did they do a pre delivery inspection? That's all I want to know.
Sorry if I sound crass to you, but there are industry standards in place both in USA and in Canada.
I will keep reading your thread just to see how well things go. I wish you the best.

[LeeWay]

And sometimes you get a lemon. Occurred so often in the auto industry that they had to pass a law for it. It still happens that they produce vehicles with unusual habits or troubles, but at least now the buyer has some recourse. Those very same lemons made it all the way through production and final inspections to the dealer and then dealer prep and inspections and test drives and still turned out to be a lemon. American made autos sometimes. Not everything is perfect. Be nice if it was. It's pretty obvious to me that the fault on this machine lies with the production facility in China. I would not expect Novakon to completely tear down a machine each time. They must rely on the factory QC. These are warrantied. Oil lines are obviously a warranty issue. They are being taken care of.
If you want a perfect machine, you can see how much Novakon would charge to tear it down a rebuild it for you or go with a higher cost machine that includes technician visits. Even then, the warranty will eventually run out. Just not sure what kind of assurance you are looking for.

[rlockwood]

We've had some big, expensive machines show up that NEVER worked properly, to the extent that their manufacturer came and removed them and reimbursed us for down time. But I agree, not normal and seems to happen far more often than I would call acceptable.. And doesn't seem to happen as much to their competitors, who aren't THAT much more expensive..

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[LeeWay]

Tormach is not immune to having issues on some machines from the start. Granted there may be fewer with them, but they do occur. Since we do not have a true sampling of true sales to owner posts on the Zone, there is no real way to conclude anything one way or the other.
What is apparent to me is that Novakon does endeavor to update machines, especially when they have found a known issue. They do try t give the customer what they want too. Evidenced in the Torus line and now the Pulsar. Stand redesigns corrected some issues customers were having. Some companies might have just installed a larger drain, but Novakon went a step or two further and made better stands from scratch.
Tormach has also updated their machine line over the years for some of the same reasons. Overcoming issues with previous versions or to meet customer demand.

I was this close to getting a Tormach rather than the Torus, but even with the minor issues I had, I feel I made the right choice for my products. That is all anyone can hope for when making a buying decision for anything. Will it be the right choice for me?

[Titaniumboy]

Was your machine set to 10,000 steps per inch resolution from the beginning? I'm 90% sure mine was set to 1,000 steps per inch. I've since changed it, I just wish I didn't have to.

Are you talking about the "Steps Per" under Config>Motor Tuning? My X (and Y and Z) "Steps Per" were set from the factory at 10160. The X and Y were set to 100.02 Velocity and 20 Accel. The Z, oddly enough, was set to 150 Velocity and 20 Accel. I have no idea why the Z is set to a higher Velocity than the X and Y.

[Hirudin]

Are you talking about the "Steps Per" under Config>Motor Tuning? My X (and Y and Z) "Steps Per" were set from the factory at 10160. The X and Y were set to 100.02 Velocity and 20 Accel. The Z, oddly enough, was set to 150 Velocity and 20 Accel. I have no idea why the Z is set to a higher Velocity than the X and Y.

Yeah, that's the setting I was curious about. Thanks for checking for me.

Mine was set to something near 1000. Far too low in my opinion. Changing it isn't exactly easy, and of course the method to change it isn't spelled out in any of the manuals. I started a thread about it, but it got derailed rather quickly so I gave up on it. I've been thinking about revisiting it though...
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...on-metric.html

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Yeah, that's the setting I was curious about. Thanks for checking for me.

Mine was set to something near 1000. Far too low in my opinion. Changing it isn't exactly easy, and of course the method to change it isn't spelled out in any of the manuals. I started a thread about it, but it got derailed rather quickly so I gave up on it. I've been thinking about revisiting it though...
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...on-metric.html

Changing it simply requires also changing a setting or two in the servo drive (or changing the micro-stepping setting if a stepper machine). I'm sure Novakon will happily give you the current settings if you ask them.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

Yup, changed it last year.

If I were them I'd publish the current settings. In other words I would take a proactive approach. Free "upgrades" are valuable to me, I would assume they would be valuable to others as well. Requiring customers to recognize deficiencies and inquire about solutions is impractical.

[LeeWay]

I can confirm that my Y axis drive was set to half step from the factory. Both X and Z were perfect when set to 800 revs on the drive. My initial pictures of the machine sitting in the yard show the Y axis switches set to 1600 revs, while X and Z are at 800. This is why when I doubled the Mach settings for steps, that Y worked fine.

[Novakon]

All that needs to be done is to modify two setting for each axis. In the servo driver, change P030 from 5 to 50 and change the "steps per" in mach3 from 1000 to 10000. This will limit your upper rapids unless you increase the kernel speed to a higher speed also. If you program a new setting in your servo driver, make sure to store the change in the driver otherwise you will loose the setting next time you power up. The manual will be updated for these types of options.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[Titaniumboy]

Do you have any details or info on the BOB used in my Torus? I'm not sure how to switch between free-running and rigid-tapping modes. Or how I should use the rigid-tapping mode. Also BOB info would be useful when I need to bring additional inputs and outputs to the BOB.

As long as you do not have the 4th axis option, the switching between spindle and rigid tapping is automatic. The switch for the selection on the BOB should be in the "tapping mode" ON position. In this mode, the BOB will default to the rigid tapping mode and when there is "spindle speed" activity, the BOB switches to select the spindle output pins. You will also notice the keyboard "hot keys" are programed to manually turn the spindle by using the "F" and "R" keys as forward and reverse. The Mach3 MPG attributes (TAB) work to control rapids and single stepping for alternate controls of the spindle rotation. (use the 4th axis jog controls for this mode) This can be handy for user specific custom needs. More details for the BOB is being integrated into the PULSAR manual and will be available shortly as a BOB specification sheet.

Does this mean that the BOB in my Torus is the same BOB that the Pulsar is using?

Are you still going to release the new Pulsar manual during the show?

Titaniumboy

[Novakon]

Does this mean that the BOB in my Torus is the same BOB that the Pulsar is using?

Are you still going to release the new Pulsar manual during the show?

The BOB in the Pulsar and Torus are very close. The main difference is in the spindle servo control and operation. From the time of the Torus development to the Pulsar's development, we have introduced switching using two different electronic transmission ratios depending if the spindle was in the tapping or continuous running modes. In the Pulsar, the BOB has a much finer angular control over the rotation during the tapping cycle. It may not be worth to upgrade, but the BOBs are compatible since they use the same hardware.

We had the draft Pulsar manual at the show and it is shaping up pretty good. We still need more assembly drawings, repair and calibration procedures.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[Titaniumboy]

I was able to remove the table this afternoon. I can post pictures if anyone is interested. The photo below of the saddle is not my photo, but is from Air_GuNNeR's "New NM-145 rebuild thread".

The major oil leak is coming from the left Y axis oil circuit where it enters the saddle (leftmost of the five inline circuits on the manifold). There is also a minor oil leak at the right Y axis oil circuit where it enters the saddle (middle circuit of the five inline manifold circuits). Now that I see where the problem is, I don't know how to fix it.

Attachment 231470

I found the cause of the oil pooling under the table!

I changed out the DPB-3 lube oil meter on the "leaking" circuit with the DPB-4 oil meter that had been included in the warranty package that Novakon sent awhile ago. Even though the DPB-4 is supposed to have twice the flow of the DPB-3, I could tell immediately that the flow had decreased. Evidently the "leaking" circuit had a defective meter unit.

With the increased backpressure oil has come out of the right Z-axis way and the two X-axis ways for the first time. I'm not sure if the siphoning has now been solved or not, but I should be able to tell by tomorrow.

The picture below is that of Bijur oil meters, whereas mine is made by Fushan Mingruyuan (also made the one shot oiler on my mill). My oil meters look like the one in the middle.

Attachment 232490

I'm not sure how the two Y-axis circuits are supposed be sealed where they enter the saddle. Normally I would expect some kind of tapped hole with a fitting like what was used for the two X-axis circuits on the left side of the saddle.

Now that I've dismantled a couple of the saddle oil circuits, I can see that the oil tubing going into the body of the saddle aren't sealed at all. The tubing is just placed loose in the saddle hole.

The saddle pictured above is not my saddle. I'll post a picture of my saddle tomorrow. Other than the saddle above having extra holes, my saddle is not nearly as nice looking. The oil grooves were literally done with a hand grinder. The oil routing on my saddle is not as cleanly laid out. And my saddle isn't scraped like the one in the picture, but instead looks like a hand grinder was used again.

I've asked Novakon to send some replacement lube oil meters, but that will probably take at least a week to get here. Does anyone know of a source for lube oil meters in the SF Bay Area that I could buy tomorrow?

Titaniumboy

[AiR_GuNNeR]

The saddle pictured above is not my saddle. I'll post a picture of my saddle tomorrow. Other than the saddle above having extra holes, my saddle is not nearly as nice looking. The oil grooves were literally done with a hand grinder. The oil routing on my saddle is not as cleanly laid out. And my saddle isn't scraped like the one in the picture, but instead looks like a hand grinder was used again.
Titaniumboy

The lube lines simply dripping the oil loosely into the holes isn't really an issue. It works well. The only changed I did was I didn't like the way the lube line was setup to simply drip onto the X Axis screw. There is a lube line hole in the nut for lube, but it is positioned downwards to keep crap out of it. I flipped it around so the hole was up top. There isn't enough space there for a fitting, so I silicon glued a length of 1/16" tubing into the lube line and ran that into the hole at the top of the nut, again silicon gluing it in place.
Before:
Attachment 232506

After:


Originally, the way surfaces and gibs were not very good looking. The gibs in particular where quite rough. If you look at the beginning of my thread, I show the before and after pictures of the ways and gibs after scraping everything in.

[Titaniumboy]

Here are the pics I promised back on Tuesday. The oil line layout differs from AiR_GuNNeR's, and is not laid out quite as workmanlike. I had read AiR_GuNNeR's thread, but had forgotten that the picture of his saddle that I grabbed was AFTER he had done all of his scraping. Like his saddle, my saddle looks like it was chewed on by a rabid beaver. The oil grooves were literally created by a hand grinder.


Attachment 233006


Like Air_GuNNeR, my table was ground very nicely. It is still dirty in the picture below, but the grinding looks a hundred times better than the saddle grinding.

Attachment 233008


The amount of room to work on the oiler meter units is very tight. I am having to use my 10mm midget wrenches in order to get in there to work. And even then I can only turn the fitting about 1/12 turn at a time.


Attachment 233010


Here are a couple of closer shots of the oil tubing going to the X-axis ball nut. Unlike AiR_GuNNeR's X-axis ball nut, my ball nut had the oil hole already facing up.


Attachment 233014 Attachment 233016


This is the tubing going to the right Y-axis way. There is a tear in the aluminum tubing, but there doesn't appear to be any oil leaking out of it.

Attachment 233012


After changing out the defective oil meter unit, I still had oil showing up on the saddle after a couple of hours. I bought a couple of M8x1.0 bolts (couldn't find any M8x1.0 setscrews) to act as plugs for the oil manifold. And M8x1.0 was not nearly as common as the M8x1.25 hardware. I determined that the saddle leakage was occurring on the same oil circuit as the original defective oil meter unit, and was happening between the oil manifold and the oil meter unit. Teflon tape applied to the oil meter unit solved the oil leak. I was careful to ensure that no teflon tape could enter the oil circuit itself. I'm still waiting on the replacement oil meter unit to arrive from Novakon before I am able to put the table back on.

Attachment 233020


If there is any oil siphoning still occuring, it is a minuscule amount. It has been three days and the oil level in the oiler tank has not gone down, even though I know that there a tiny amount of seepage happening around the M8x1.0 bolt plug.

Air_GuNNeR: LIke you, I'm not thrilled about the oil for the X-axis ballnut merely being dribbled out on the ballscrew, and I want to reroute that oil circuit so it goes into the ballnut lube hole. Where did you find the 1/16" tubing that you used?

I have access to surface grinders at the community college and I'm sure that I could get the way surfaces on the saddle to be flat and parallel. But I'm concerned that I might screw up the geometry between the flat surfaces and the dovetail surfaces since I don't have the ability to grind or scrape the dovetails.

Titaniumboy

[LeeWay]

I would get some blue dye and try that first just to see how flat they really are. I know they done look nice, but it would be good to know. I would not regrind or machine them though. I would spend a little time on it by hand. There is also some sort of material used for way repair that you might consider if there is room. I do not recall the name of the stuff. Maybe someone here can shed some light there.

Is there room under the table to mount the oil line over the nut? I think the oil on the screw there is probably sufficient, but of course, not ideal and wondering what the reason behind that placement is? I try to oil the ball nuts when possible, but I have to oil the screws on my first mill. That is a weekly job (no oil system) and every time I pull it apart for any reason, the ball nuts get filled with fresh oil.