[bjones]

i was going to respond but you keep editing every 30 seconds, i'll wait till you get your thoughts together but i'll at least tell you that to many of us responding this is not a "new hobby" and were merely trying to help you avoid pitfalls we've seen here over and over but there comes a time you just have to bow out and let people learn the hard way, good luck.

[NewHobby]

Ya I agree, I stated MANY times I appreciate the input. And there are some thoughts that are not together alright but they ain't mine. Thanks.

[cyclestart]

Link to that project if anyone has collateral interests My SX650 Scratch Bobber build - XS650 Forum

Holy ##!!&? you've got some serious skills ! I'm into the British stuff but most big vertical twins have always looked and felt 'right' somehow imo.

Honestly I think you'll do fine without our help.

[AVRnj]

Take this for what it's worth but my LMS 3960 (sx2l) with solid column has very bad dovetails on my x and y axis.

Both of them vary in thickness so bad that I cannot run that little machine at higher than 60 velocity and 10 accel unless I am willing to tolerate bad slop.

I am forced to tighten the gib to the thinnest point, which makes it incredibly tight at wider points and I often get stalls.

I also personally don't like the gib system at all in the x2/x3 machines.

[NewHobby]

Hey thanks cycle start! Ya that was my first attempt, now on to something new, back to the cnc thing. I hoped a few years would improve quality but I suspect not.

Yep AVRNj the x2 and x3 and in betweens a have so many issues it is hard to count. Some machines are good, some are bad. I suppose i'd rather have issues with an $800 machine than the same issues on a larger scale with a machine twice the cost given the fact that I done need a larger machine.

I expect issues with any Chinese mill. Worse case I just use it as a manual mill and buy a Tormach. In the end these Chinese mills are a bit of junk with fairly low quality castings and machining, hence the GREAT cost. I am definitely going open eyed. If it is too sloppy to mess with I'll just spring for a tormach, no need to even mess with an 0704 or other similar option. They all are of dubious quality and design for cnc. There is a reason cnc's use linear bearings I suppose.

Some machines convert great with little issues some have bigger issues. It is. Or the machine model, it is a crp shoot regardless of machine model.

Thanks all!

[AVRnj]

Yep the x2 and x3 have so many issues it is hard to count. Some machines are good, some are bad. I suppose i'd rather have issues with an $800 machine than the same issues on a larger scale with a machine twice the cost given the fact that I done need a larger machine.

I expect issues with any Chinese mill. Worse case I just use it as a manual mill and buy a tormach. Then I will be the one saying everyone is making a mistake converting any mill ha ha. :P

While I kind of agree, the g0704 is not much more at all than my LMS 3960, ecspecially when you consider freight.

I personally wish I had gone with a g0704 instead.

[bjones]

I expect issues with any Chinese mill. Worse case I just use it as a manual mill and buy a Tormach. In the end these Chinese mills are a bit of junk with fairly low quality castings and machining, hence the GREAT cost. I am definitely going open eyed. If it is too sloppy to mess with I'll just spring for a tormach, no need to even mess with an 0704 or other similar option. They all are of dubious quality and design for cnc. There is a reason cnc's use linear bearings I suppose.

Thanks all!

newsflash, the tormach is made in china and has dovetails on all 3 axis.

[NewHobby]

One does not disassemble a tormach in the hopes they can make it work as a cnc. The reason for the cost is all the work they do for you in that regard.

Seems it makes no difference what one buys they all require work, some plain suck and some are good, luck of the draw.

Maybe I'll check to the pm20 some more, on ebay they are doing free shipping. May be an option with the smaller table which I want. Since they all require work and it is a bit of luck maybe the larger column and Z is better to start with.

Seems that is a common feedback theme.

There is a nice Enco f1 locally, maybe I'll look at that to convert but their z is pretty low as well. Like the little skyfire is.

[Fastest1]

Beautiful bike build. Not into those but good craftsmanship is worthy of applause. Bravo. Will be interesting what you do here.

[NewHobby]

Hey thanks appreciate the kind words. Funny you say that, I don't want one either, just wanted to build it. I find road too dangerous despite broken femur, elbow and ankle from mx. At least as car did not then run over me!

I am dying to see what I do too, I see at least 5 options, 3 of them I do not like, despite folks pushing certain mills over others I can find evidence like the one below for any of the grizzly Chinese mills, except the round column ones which do not flex but have other issues.

That leaves me with building a franken mill or buying a CNC. I know handlewanker got a SkyFire and I got time to decide, maybe I'll see a review first. I might just buy a round column manual mill (grizzly has a new G0754) and use the it for manual stuff like tall Z drilling and then just buy a SkyFire CNC for "most" of the stuff.

Seems every Grizzly Chinese mill or other variant by other name have some issue or another with flex. Here is a BF30 which is bigger than the 0704. I can find stuff like this for the 0704, X3, BF25 etc etc... Check out that sweet flex. This type of thing is not just a few isolated incidents, it is endemic. Jump to 2:00 in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_6i4SN05HU

[bjones]

yeah that video has been discussed before but you being new don't know that, you see something and disparage all the mills based on one tidbit. fact is his testing is useless, all he is measuring is the deflection from his column and the wall. a useful test would mount the indicator on the table so the deflection could be measured where it matters not how much his stand shakes. but i know you seem to have an ax to grind for some reason. no one is pushing you, you are welcome to make your own choice and learn the hard way. good luck.
also, you keep lumping everything on grizzly, fact is there are many suppliers all over the world, the guy in the video is in europe and using a bf30 which grizzly doesn't even sell. try and get your facts straight. yes wait on his review of the skyfire, problem is if it's positive you'll ignore it. I agree, i think a round column would be a fine choice for you to learn on since you know nothing, but curious you link to the one you did, it has a bigger table than the g0704 which you said was too big before. the G1005Z might be a better size.
funny but didn't you say "Twas not a "help me pick a machine thread guys" but you've gone astray of the x2 column talk yourself.

[The Blight]

The moment you introduce a joint zone you are subject to just the cross section area of the bolts for the column's integrity.

I'm not so sure that this is entirely correct.

Adding a spacer between the column and base wont change the amount of bolts used. Unless the mating surfaces are uneven, the load will be distributed between the bolts. If the machining load creates a greater force than the preload on the bolts, then the joint will start to deflect. Before this happens you will most likely see deflection in other parts of the machine. To make it short: The load needed to deflect the joint will be the same, but the amount it can deflect will be greater.

--> On to something else. Have I missed the part where the OP asks what machine he should buy? I thought this topic was about adding a spacer between the column and base on an X2, but it seems like it has been derailed to "You should buy this machine because I didn't get one with the travel that I needed when I got mine". If the X2 fits his bill and has the travel he needs with a simple modification as the one proposed in the first post, then by all means let him do it the way he wants. It's not like he is about to do a life changing mistake. The worst that can happen is that he will end up with another hobby as a lot of other people here have. -> Including me for some of the machines and gadgets that I have, but I love every single one of them (Including the X2 that doesn't even look like one any more).

PS. Sorry if I missed the part where he actually asks what machine to buy. It's getting late and I'm getting tired.

[handlewanker]

Hi, I think there is a misunderstanding when you lump all Chinese mills in the same basket.

The first golden rule of selling is to find out what the customer wants and make sure he gets it.

The Chinese are very good salesmen, people, whatever.....and they know that what people want is a Rolls Royce for the price of Mini, that is Human nature and never changes.

Everyone ALWAYS looks at the price tag before they look at the specs etc, and if you are one of those people who NEVER look at the price tag before buying, then you're not making things for profit or fun......you're a buyer of things.

So.......the Chinese don't make a Rolls Royce mill when the buyer is only looking at the price tag, and as long as the paint colour is right and the handles turn smooth, that is as far as the average if not most of the cheap Chinese mill buyers get to go.

So......you end up with a mill that is made DOWN..... down..... down to the very last nut and bolt to a price, and it still has to be shipped to your local showroom too.

An old cliché is you only get what you pay for, and if you bought a second hand many time over Bridgeport mill for $1,500 you soon get to appreciate the quality that is built into the 'Port and the new price when it was made.

It was mentioned I went for a Skyfire mill build......not for the price, and that is a fact, but mainly, and that is 100% mainly because it had linear ways from the start.......it was also made as a CNC mill from the start, not as a manual mill with CNC capabilities after a rework.

That mill in the video, the BF30 where the guy bolted it to the wall had to be the biggest design blunder that ever was.

Any design person who decided that saving money on the amount of iron in the column was a good idea should be taken outside and given a good hard kick up the arse.

The column of a vertical mill is like the spinal column of a person, all the action is attached to the column and it is the only anchor point to resist the loading of the cutter thrust.

So.......if you think the Chinese mills are all crap, think hard, the Chinese are only giving you what you want for your money and to stay in business they don't give you banquet food at take away prices.

So next time you go to look at a mill, have a check list as to what you need to have in the specs and then decide if the price for your needs is in your comfort zone.

BTW, anything with dovetail ways with a CNC retrofit in mind is looking at the price tag, and a poor man always pays twice.
Ian.

[Fastest1]

Broke my femur too on a CR125M (74?) Went on to roadracing, broke ankles. Back to dirt, ruptured the achilles!

[NewHobby]

yeah that video has been discussed before but you being new don't know that, you see something and disparage all the mills based on one tidbit. fact is his testing is useless, all he is measuring is the deflection from his column and the wall. a useful test would mount the indicator on the table so the deflection could be measured where it matters not how much his stand shakes. but i know you seem to have an ax to grind for some reason. no one is pushing you, you are welcome to make your own choice and learn the hard way. good luck.
also, you keep lumping everything on grizzly, fact is there are many suppliers all over the world, the guy in the video is in europe and using a bf30 which grizzly doesn't even sell. try and get your facts straight. yes wait on his review of the skyfire, problem is if it's positive you'll ignore it. I agree, i think a round column would be a fine choice for you to learn on since you know nothing, but curious you link to the one you did, it has a bigger table than the g0704 which you said was too big before. the G1005Z might be a better size.
funny but didn't you say "Twas not a "help me pick a machine thread guys" but you've gone astray of the x2 column talk yourself.

Yes yes the BF30 it an optima clone like the LMT and the PM are, which both have thinner columns than the 0704. The 30 has a larger column the the 0704 was the point. And I DID say "or other variant by other name ".

And round column as a manual mill. Said that pretty clearly. Manual mill.

Not entirely sure what your problem is, you seem to have an issue with me, please stop. Let me make mistakes and learn from my nothingness as you say. What do you care anyhow. Your attacks bordering on personal are not helping. I have tried being diplomatic with you.

[bjones]

Yes yes the BF30 it an optima clone like the LMT and the PM are, which both have thinner columns than the 0704. The 30 has a larger column the the 0704 was the point. And I DID say "or other variant by other name ".

And round column as a manual mill. Said that pretty clearly. Manual mill.

Not entirely sure what your problem is, you seem to have an issue with me, please stop. Let me make mistakes and learn from my nothingness as you say. What do you care anyhow. Your attacks bordering on personal are not helping. I have tried being diplomatic with you.

just trying to help, you make incorrect assumptions about all chinese mills based on one video, don't you want to get the facts?

[NewHobby]

handlewanker, not disparaging all Chinese mills, this is why I specifically mentioned Grizzly and their variants by other names I. I know Tormach and Skyfire are Chinese, but those are not grizzly "variants" by other names. I know what those are and what they are not and why low cost mills are the way they are. For the price you are sacrificing something of course.

Anyhow any chance you'll stick a spacer under the column of the Skyfire?

[NewHobby]

just trying to help, you make incorrect assumptions about all chinese mills based on one video, don't you want to get the facts?

Soo..... I know you understood "stop posting". Seriously. You've got some issue and it is not the mills. Back it down. You know darn well there are dozens of videos and hundreds in not thousands of posts about issues with these mills from column flex to crappy ways. This entire site is dedicated to these issues, who do you think your kidding with that passive aggressive crap. You trying to convince me or yourself there?

And by the way you have not provided one single useful fact except point out what an idiot you think I am. Not sure you know anymore than me there champ.

[bjones]

Soo..... I know you understood "stop posting". Seriously. You've got some issue and it is not the mills. Back it down.

And by the way you have not provided one single useful fact except point out what an idiot you think I am.

I know you will not stop so then by all means provide something concrete what mill should a know nothing like me should get?

can't you read, i have been giving you facts and have given you suggestions on what to get,

the G1005Z might be a better size.

for example. you have a real chip on your shoulder and need to be more accepting of the advice people with experience are giving you for free just trying to help you. you are way too defensive, you've said yourself you need a manual mill first to learn. careful, your bad attitude is going to alienate you from getting much future advice.
a little more facts, the bf20 is the original, the grizzly is just another one of the variants not the other way around.
well i can see you edited again after i replied, hundreds and thousands? you can't count either i see, i've been reading on here since 2008 and yes i know far more than you champ.

[NewHobby]

Ok, so you may be right, to be fair your being less than cordial though setting me on the defense. c'mon you know your belligerent, I have read some of your other posts, we all have. So I was defensive. But were past that now, agree?

Let me recap your suggestion then to make sure I am listening. Your suggestion is to start with a larger mill, do some manual stuff (that I want to do anyhow) and maybe CNC that mill at a later time, maybe buy another mill at a later time and CNC that, time will tell. The G1005Z mill is not too much larger than the mini mills but smaller then the larger mills and the table size is about right for my needs and I get the extra Z I want and the price is pretty good and foot print is still manageable. All that and I will not have column flex.

If I misunderstood please reiterate you seem interested in me hearing you so I want to make sure I do not misunderstand you as we avoid previous posts. I think I understood you and I like the overall suggestion. Assuming I reread and got you right.