[SCzEngrgGroup]

Now you're losing a little credibility here Ray. I run to the limits of my 1100's horsepower all day long in 6061 dry machining. I use air to clear the chips, but that's it. I can send you a pile of chips if you want. :-)
And yes, I used to run flood, and I'm perfectly aware of the pitfalls of both systems. Dry machining doesn't allow for lazy cuts.

What kind of cuts are you talking about? Width, depth, RPM, feed?

Regards,
Ray L.

[tbaker2500]

What kind of cuts are you talking about? Width, depth, RPM, feed?

Regards,
Ray L.

Typically a 1/2" standard 2fl Atrax carbide EM. 4500rpm (Series 1 machine), full slot. .2" DOC 36 IPM, or .25" DOC at 27 IPM is the best I get out of this machine with that cutter, with or without coolant. Now if I pull out the Superfly, on the other hand... :-)

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Typically a 1/2" standard 2fl Atrax carbide EM. 4500rpm (Series 1 machine), full slot. .2" DOC 36 IPM, or .25" DOC at 27 IPM is the best I get out of this machine with that cutter, with or without coolant. Now if I pull out the Superfly, on the other hand... :-)

That's pretty darned good! I've never had much luck getting quite that aggressive on dry slotting without eventually getting into chip-welding problems. Can you sustain that rate?

Regards,
Ray L.

[tbaker2500]

That's pretty darned good! I've never had much luck getting quite that aggressive on dry slotting without eventually getting into chip-welding problems. Can you sustain that rate?

Regards,
Ray L.

If I'm using a sharp cutter. If the cutter gets too dull, I'd have to back it off to .2"doc 27ipm. I get about 10-20 hours out of that end mill with that cut. I use the blow port of a shop vac to keep the chips clear, and machining dry lets those chips fly out of the pocket so much better than even higher pressure coolant. But it you do't give those chips a place to go, then you will re-cut them and you will get welding. That really is the most important thing with dry machining, give the chips a place to go.

[zero_divide]

If I'm using a sharp cutter. If the cutter gets too dull, I'd have to back it off to .2"doc 27ipm. I get about 10-20 hours out of that end mill with that cut. I use the blow port of a shop vac to keep the chips clear, and machining dry lets those chips fly out of the pocket so much better than even higher pressure coolant. But it you do't give those chips a place to go, then you will re-cut them and you will get welding. That really is the most important thing with dry machining, give the chips a place to go.

Tbaker, i do not know how much you value your cleanup time and the hassle of workimg with coolant,
But with a good flood that endmill can easily last for more than a several hundred hours balls out.
Ofcource ny experience comes from big cnc with enclosure and really high volume flow, but i could never capture the exact time tool got too dull to cut. I always nuke it by mistake well before that.

[rlockwood]

Tbaker, i do not know how much you value your cleanup time and the hassle of workimg with coolant,
But with a good flood that endmill can easily last for more than a several hundred hours balls out.
Ofcource ny experience comes from big cnc with enclosure and really high volume flow, but i could never capture the exact time tool got too dull to cut. I always nuke it by mistake well before that.

I've tried before, he insists its better that way.. I dunno, I just full up 55 gallon buckets worth of chips all day and my tools last for months, but 10-20 hours doesn't seem too bad

[Hirudin]

Here's what happened one time I accidentally tried dry machining without any air flow... (skip to ~6:10 to hear it weld up after a few seconds)


Novakon Torus Pro CNC Mill - DIY Power Draw Bar Actuator Test - YouTube

[Don Clement]

Yes even thoroughly drenched in coolant, the masked duo from team N wins by two falls to a submission over team T.

[tbaker2500]

Tbaker, i do not know how much you value your cleanup time and the hassle of workimg with coolant,
But with a good flood that endmill can easily last for more than a several hundred hours balls out.
Ofcource ny experience comes from big cnc with enclosure and really high volume flow, but i could never capture the exact time tool got too dull to cut. I always nuke it by mistake well before that.

Really? I found zero difference on that cutter's tool life going to dry. I think you might be overestimating the "quality" of this bit.
Okay, I just calculated my last run, and that was 24 hours of run time on that bit and it's still sharp. So maybe I under estimated.

But thank you for recognizing the value associated with eliminating the hassle of flood. Add into that health issues. I'm very sensitive to chemicals, and the various coolants I'd tried left me very irritated. That being said, I've learned some better brands that might be less bad.

[tbaker2500]

I've tried before, he insists its better that way.. I dunno, I just full up 55 gallon buckets worth of chips all day and my tools last for months, but 10-20 hours doesn't seem too bad

Maybe I wasn't clear before. It's better for ME. If you can't accept that, no problem, continue feeling superior.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Really? I found zero difference on that cutter's tool life going to dry. I think you might be overestimating the "quality" of this bit.
Okay, I just calculated my last run, and that was 24 hours of run time on that bit and it's still sharp. So maybe I under estimated.

But thank you for recognizing the value associated with eliminating the hassle of flood. Add into that health issues. I'm very sensitive to chemicals, and the various coolants I'd tried left me very irritated. That being said, I've learned some better brands that might be less bad.

Personally, I've done dry, I used FogBusters for several years, then finally, reluctantly, switched to flood when I started pushing my machines harder. I'd never go back. I found dry/mist far too noisy, and the constant stream of high-velocity air needed to keep chips clear, especially on deep pockets and slots, really painful to listen to, and the chips went EVERYWHERE. It was also very finicky - hard to keep the air/mist/etc aimed exactly where it's needed, and the FogBuster was prone to random clogs, due to the small orifices in the mister head. And at the rates you're moving, it only takes a few seconds of loss of air/coolant to get into welding and other bad things. In comparison, I find flood relatively relaxing - it's quiet, not at all fussy, and very reliable. It's easy to get enough flow that aim almost doesn't matter, so I never have problems caused by lack of cooling, unless I'm careless and allow the sump to get too low. I like being able to start the machine and walk away, confident it won't get into trouble. Never quite reached that point with dry or mist. I did like not having wet, drippy parts coming off the machine, but got tired of finding chips all the way on the opposite of my shop, 20+ feet away. With flood, I can run for days, and not have a single chip on the floor even right next to the machine. Oddly, I find less airborne/vapor coolant with flood as well, though I suspect that is highly dependant on the specific coolant you use, and I did switch from KoolMist to RustLick WS5050 shortly after switching to flood.

Regards,
Ray L.

[hoss2006]

LOL, I've used flood for years and always got arguments from ray about how his mist was better. Took a while but it's nice to see he has finally come around.
Hoss

[tbaker2500]

Ray, I use a shop vac for air, so I don't have a loud compressor running all the time. I have the vac on a speed control, so it keeps the volume down, and gives me a wide air stream, so aiming isn't important. YMMV.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for posting Ray.
I spoke with some experienced cnc machinist who warned me of potential health effects of mist/fog liber ants so I am using kool mist 77 flood.
My goal is to come up with the most efficient chip and part cleanup but so far have not had any ill effects. I am chemically sensitive, though.
Nathan

Personally, I've done dry, I used FogBusters for several years, then finally, reluctantly, switched to flood when I started pushing my machines harder. I'd never go back. I found dry/mist far too noisy, and the constant stream of high-velocity air needed to keep chips clear, especially on deep pockets and slots, really painful to listen to, and the chips went EVERYWHERE. It was also very finicky - hard to keep the air/mist/etc aimed exactly where it's needed, and the FogBuster was prone to random clogs, due to the small orifices in the mister head. And at the rates you're moving, it only takes a few seconds of loss of air/coolant to get into welding and other bad things. In comparison, I find flood relatively relaxing - it's quiet, not at all fussy, and very reliable. It's easy to get enough flow that aim almost doesn't matter, so I never have problems caused by lack of cooling, unless I'm careless and allow the sump to get too low. I like being able to start the machine and walk away, confident it won't get into trouble. Never quite reached that point with dry or mist. I did like not having wet, drippy parts coming off the machine, but got tired of finding chips all the way on the opposite of my shop, 20+ feet away. With flood, I can run for days, and not have a single chip on the floor even right next to the machine. Oddly, I find less airborne/vapor coolant with flood as well, though I suspect that is highly dependant on the specific coolant you use, and I did switch from KoolMist to RustLick WS5050 shortly after switching to flood.

Regards,
Ray L.

[zero_divide]

Really? I found zero difference on that cutter's tool life going to dry. I think you might be overestimating the "quality" of this bit.
Okay, I just calculated my last run, and that was 24 hours of run time on that bit and it's still sharp. So maybe I under estimated.

But thank you for recognizing the value associated with eliminating the hassle of flood. Add into that health issues. I'm very sensitive to chemicals, and the various coolants I'd tried left me very irritated. That being said, I've learned some better brands that might be less bad.

Oh I do not deny that coolant smells and is greasy and airblast is noisy.
I also have never used that kind of brand name cutter.
I just though that 20 hours was very short life for a carbide endmill on aluminum.

If it works it works. If you max out rpm and HP and can still run dry, the only difference really is the cutter life and surface finish.

[TiagoSantos]

LOL, I've used flood for years and always got arguments from ray about how his mist was better. Took a while but it's nice to see he has finally come around.
Hoss

Ah! First there was flood coolant, then HSM toolpaths. Now he's experimenting with high helix carbide tools. Next thing you know, he'll be building a drawbar with a stack of bellevilles!

(edit: I realize I bumped this thread which many people were probably trying to forget. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity.)

[hoss2006]

Ah! First there was flood coolant, then HSM toolpaths. Now he's experimenting with high helix carbide tools. Next thing you know, he'll be building a drawbar with a stack of bellevilles!

(edit: I realize I bumped this thread which many people were probably trying to forget. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity.)

Sorry not getting your point or if you are trying to make one.
Hoss

[totalhack]

Ray,

Are you offering your drawbar for sale? Is it compatible with Tormach 1100 machines?

I was just machining some 1018 steel this week trying to go with a .500 depth of cut and the tool holder kept pulling out even with a relatively small .02 width of cut, maxed out rpm and slow 8 IPM feeds.

Thanks,

Ray

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Ray,

Are you offering your drawbar for sale? Is it compatible with Tormach 1100 machines?

I was just machining some 1018 steel this week trying to go with a .500 depth of cut and the tool holder kept pulling out even with a relatively small .02 width of cut, maxed out rpm and slow 8 IPM feeds.

Thanks,

Ray

Sorry, but my PDB and ATC are currently offered only on Novakon machines,and, perhaps later on, other makes. I had originally intended to offer both products for Tormach machines as well, as both can be easily adapted to almost any machine. But, after being threatened with legal action by Tormach, based on a laundry list of absolutely ludicrous and totally unsupportable claims, before I had even DESIGNED either product, I made the decision to NEVER offer any product for any Tormach machine. Their loss. And, I guess, now yours....

Regards,
Ray L.

[johnedward]

aha, so there IS an underlying reason for all the snarky comments and false praise about tormach afterall.

But, after being threatened with legal action by Tormach, based on a laundry list of absolutely ludicrous and totally unsupportable claims, before I had even DESIGNED either product,

well actually the facts are he mentioned this legal action back in july http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1315398 and by then he already had a tts based stepper driven pdb akin to his present one for novakon and an atc like tormachs on his kneemill a year earlier and his present pdb was well into production for the novakon by this time.