[Len Hoffman]

Hi all. This is my first post. I own Hoffman Automotive Machine in Watkinsville, GA. We are a production cylinderhead rebuilder and also do contract high performance R&D.
I want to make the jump to a 3 axis machine with the ability to add a 4th. I have a life time of manual machine experience, but zero cnc experience. I am okay with 2d acad.
I would like to stay under 20K if possible, but will spend a bit more if it's the smart way to go for production and long life.
I've done a fair amount of reading and get the impression that some serious bang for the buck can be had from getting old iron and retrofitting new controls. The Centroid set-up looks appealing to me as it seems to be popular with a lot canned cycles and a good deal of support (can any one confirm or deflate that?)
I like the idea of being able to later add digitization ability.
I'd like to have around 40"x, 15y and 5"z. Durability is important and user-friendliness too.
I also think I would be more comfortable learning with a machine that has manual capability too, but does that come with compromises that aren't good for the important cnc operation?

Any input on how to start, what to steer from and towards will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

[handlewanker]

Hi, having been a manual machinist for 50 years+, but no CNC stuff, but going in that direction.........I would think that if you 'invested" in a Tormach 1100 and went on from there, you could get a ready to go package with manufacturer's back up, warranty etc, and if/when you outgrow or re-realise the capability of the machine you would get a good resale value when you sold it on, which you won't get with a DIY retrofit.

If you have a budget of 20K, then you'll get a lot of bang for the buck and also experience of what the system is capable of, but you have to commit to get on the first rung of the ladder.

I don't think that as a start out in CNC, buying a manual mill and attempting to retrofit it with CNC parts is a good idea, when you realise that the capability of the machine depends 100% on the ability of it to be totally efficient in all quarters when the job is being machined.......backlash in the screws and slop in the dovetails can play havoc with the final product, and you could pay more just to get there.
Ian.

[Chiptosser]

Gentlemen,

I don't know anything about the Tormach machines. I have seen the small one, not big enough for automotive use, but I have used Centroid controls for 14 yrs.
The control is very nice to use, I have used many different controls on different machines, Ez-trak (bridgport) , hidenhain (155b, 455), fanuc,.
The Centroid is on my personel knee mill that I us at my shop. I bought it new in 97, it has the forth axis capability, currently us it for coolant.
Centroid is in Pennsylvania, and offers good support . One of the things that I really like is the color display, shows the tool path in different colors for the different tools.
Many machine builders are offering these controls no
As far as the machine size that you need, if you want 40"x, your going to have a machine with 40x,20y and z varies with the machine. But 20" is sweet!! I would suggest a bed mill. The size 40x20y20z mill is what I would suggest, you will want more than the 5" in z that a knee mill has. How do I know?, Been there, If you want to do any head or any cylinder boring, 5" isn't enough. Trust me.
If you want to have a 4th axis capability, the knee mill will not have the height needed. You will be limited with a knee mill.
Trump, Fryer, and some others that I can't think of right now, offer the ability to use the machine in manual or controlled mode.
Also, I would not use anything less than a #40 tool holders, R8's will drive you crazy. To be realistic, right up front, your going to have to spend at least 20G, if your lucky finding a good used machine, a good Quality machine will be between 20G and 30G and if your lucky, you will get some tooling along with the machine.

Good Luck

[Len Hoffman]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I definitely don't want to try to retrofit a manual. I was referring to finding an old cnc machine that had been retrofitted with a modern controller and everything that goes with that.
The issue of support is a big deal and has me thinking about new, though that would mean a smaller machine I think. And that really isn't a big deal, at least for now. I have a couple of specific production jobs that we currently do on our three manual knees. If I had a quality cnc knee that could take over those tasks that would be great start.
Does anyone here have experience with millport machines? They have a bunch of different offerings and use centroid controllers. I do have a friend and former employee who teaches a cnc course to engineering students at the Univeristy of Georgia. I also have an employee who's enrolled in a machinist program and is about to start a cnc coruse. I'll have some help with this, but I don't know how far that will carry me.
Thanks again for the input. This is a great site! I see me coming here for help a lot as this gets going. Looks like there is wealth of knowledge here.

[slowtwitch]

Hello Len, I can't really suggest any machine in particular..but, think about a fully enclosed machine if your going with flood coolant....a used Haas or Fadal. Anyway, Good luck with your switch to the dark side. Btw, I have a set of your heads on my type 4

[Len Hoffman]

Hello Len, I can't really suggest any machine in particular..but, think about a fully enclosed machine if your going with flood coolant....a used Haas or Fadal. Anyway, Good luck with your switch to the dark side. Btw, I have a set of your heads on my type 4

Hey Pete, small world huh?
I have thought about an enclosed machine. Just not sure what's going to work best for my specific needs, open for easy access or closed for the sophistication and capabilities that seem to come with enclosed machines.
Pete do you work in a shop?

[slowtwitch]

You have a point about easy access. My buddy does race engines...V8 stuff, and his machine is open. It kinda of big, probably has a 15/20 hp spindle, Heck, it even has a small jib crane attached to it.

As for working in a shop...no. But, I do have one now. I started about 2.5 years ago, making the SyncLink stuff. It's still a part time thing (still have the day job). All my machines have been retrofitted by me. I have a small cnc mill, two Emco cnc lathes, a manual lathe and a manual mill. Everything i do is small

The hardest part for me was learning cad/cam and G-code, as I never seen a cnc machine before I bought mine.

Now days, i take it for granted. I don't think you'll have to much of a problem with the transition. As you have stated, there's a ton of help on this forum...it's where I turned to ( and still do) when I get stuck.

[Len Hoffman]

Pete the sync-link is very cool. If we were still racing the 914 we would have switched from the hex bar to the sync link. Hope that's working out for you. Looks like you have a lot invested in equipment.

As far as accessibility goes my main concern is being able to watch the process in case somethings going hay-wire. I don't work with any iron heads so loading would not be a huge issue, though some of the in-line bmw 6 banger heads get quite heavy, at least by my backs standards.

Would love to hear some input from folks who have bought older cnc machines then retrofitted centroid controls. I'm seriously torn between that approach and new. I get the impression that some of the older machines are way more solid than the new machines in my price range. The retrofitted Bosses on centroids site look really appealing. But if I can't get the sort of support a cnc noob needs then I would be in a real jam.

[mmprestine]

I would look into the Novakon Torus Pro. Best bang for your buck out there in the intro class and will pay for itself then you can decide if you need anything else.

Torus Pro | Novakon

Otherwise get a used HAAS VF-1.

Haas VF-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

[Len Hoffman]

I would look into the Novakon Torus Pro. Best bang for your buck out there in the intro class and will pay for itself then you can decide if you need anything else.

Torus Pro | Novakon

Otherwise get a used HAAS VF-1.

Haas VF-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

Thanks for weighing in. I looked at the Torus site. Very interesting. My concern is with the durability. I like the idea of getting in cheap, but more than that I want to put something on the shop floor that's going to hold up well and be able to run strong for a good while once we get up to speed.
The Haas vf-1 is more attractive to me since it seems they have a better likelyhood to be durable for a long time. The 20"x travel is bit short though.

I'm finding myself increasing attracted to a bridgeport boss with centroid controls. Am I crazy? My instinct is to steer away from taiwan and chinese machines. I'm afraid of getting something that's hard to service/find parts for. Is that unfounded?
Thanks for the in-put. I really appreciate and need advice.

[laniak]

Hi Len,

Just happened on here for the first time in months and noticed you are right down the street from my stomping grounds.

I grew up in Athens and now have my machine shop (i build research equipment, not automotive stuff) in Greenville, SC.
I bought a '95 Leadwell (Taiwanese) VMC last year. It weighs 12,000 pounds. 20" x 30" x 20" travels. I've had a Prototrak mill and lathe (both mill and lathe are manual & cnc in one machine) for 5 years and love them for prototype work, but the enclosed VMC with flood coolant and a tool changer is an absolute must if you plan to do big parts with long run times, or any kind of medium run production. (the lack of enclosure/flood coolant/toolchanger are the huge shortcomings of the manual/cnc machines).

My machine has a Fanuc (basically the industry standard) control, and it took me a month of spare time to get it back up and running with the correct parameters and figuring out a few small issues (small to someone with some electrical/computer knowledge....giant hurdles to someone without that knowedge).
I bought it from a surplus dealer who'd bought out a whole manufacturing facilty. My machine sat for a year in their warehouse before I talked them down in price to what I was willing to give.

My intention all along was to hope I could pay for the machine before I had any major repair/replacement bills. Success on that! just recently.
Now I'm satisfied with the mechanicals of the machine, and if the control craps out, I would weigh the options of retrofitting the control with a centroid or similar, or diving in and fixing the fanuc. I don't have professional electrical repair experience, but I enjoy figuring things out, and have thus far avoided hiring special techs to repair any of my cnc equipment since I started up 5 years ago (knock on wood!)

One big thing for you to realize is that you need to be reasonably sure that the used machine you buy is mechanically sound. Spindles, motor drives, ball screws....these things are all in the thousands of dollars to replace on a big industrial VMC. Haas is good because you know you can get access to the parts, but they will not be cheap. And the centroid control will cost you $10k even if you re-use the motors and drives that are currently on the machine.

You may be able to find an older Haas VMC, or similar, under your $20k price range, with either 16"x30" (VF-2) or 20x40 (VF-3) travels. But just keep in mind, you better be ready for some hidden costs.
Rigging. These things weigh 8,000-12,000lbs. so figure on a way to move them safely. Might cost $2500 just to move it across town, unless you've got connections.
Tooling. You'll need $2000 to get the absolute bare minimum of tooling to start up.
You can find CAT40 tool holders on ebay or other auctions for $30ea, and you'll need 15-20 of them before you know it.
A vise or two will set you back $500-$1500.
If you want 4th axis, make sure the machine is already wired for it....that can be very expensive to retrofit.
(not to mention that the 4th axis itself will run you several thousand dollars. used.)
It'll cost you $150 to fill up the coolant sump.
Wiring. You've already got a shop so you're familiar with that cost.

Not having any cnc experience is pretty scary, in my book.
Software! you can get some intro CAM software in the $500-$2000 range, but if you want to do 3d surfacing of odd shapes very often, you should budget a good bit more.
That employee who's taking the CNC class (at athens tech?) will be valuable....but if you're all green, you're going to crash the machine a few times, trust me. Crashing can be anywhere from an annoyance (broken endmill and scrapped part) to a monster headache, complete with injured machine components (see spindles and balls screws mentioned above). I'd want to look around and find someone who really knows what they're doing to get you up and running...especially if the machine needs to make you money soon.

When things go wrong, these forums are worth many times their weight in gold.

If you want to make little steel/aluminum widgets the tormach or torus offerings might make sense, but they are pretty slow and small (7"x11" travel, I think).

Do your research, figure out how much risk you can handle, and if it makes sense...dive in!
I'd say you're doing really awesome if you can get a 20"x40" machine in the door with a 4th axis (even a 15 year old one) for $20k.
I've had several jobs this past year that I could not have done without the VMC, and it's been a lot of fun (and a little struggling) getting it to where it is (paid off!).

good luck.

Carl

edit: just noticed your mention of the bridgeport boss. that is definitely a much more affordable option, but it does concede the tool changer and enclosed flood coolant....thinking about it, $10k for a machine like that would be a great way to introduce yourself to CNC without the bigger commitment of a big VMC.

[Len Hoffman]

Hi Carl, thanks for the lengthy post. That's the kind of info I'm after.
Athens is a great town. I moved here in '85, still live here and did business in Clarke Co 17 years before moving the shop to Watkinsville. When did you live here?

Today my business neighbor (Nathan Mende of Boxerworks for you bmw bike guys out there) brought a fellow over to my shop who owns a machine shop that has 5 Milltornic cnc's, one of which he says he doesn't use much any more and is willing to sell. It's fully operational and he even said he'd help me hit the floor running with a program to do the critical work that has me most motivated to buy a cnc machine. He says he's been very happy with his milltronic's and the companies support. It uses a pc controller with milltronic's centurian 7 system. The price is in my budget and the fact that it's local and I'll have help getting it going really makes this attractive to me.

Anyone have any experience with milltronic?

[laniak]

Is the guy with all these Milltronics machines name Ted?

I don't have hands on experience with Milltronics, but if I'd found one when I was shopping, it was definitely on my possibilty list.

If you trust that the machine is in good working order, and he'll help you out with programming, that's obviously a huge bonus.
You need to pick his brain as much as he'll let you. Someone who's got a shop full of them also has a head full of super valuable knowledge.
If you're lucky he's also a good communicator and trouble shooter.
Milltronics still has good support, although call them an make sure they still support that control. Something in the back of my mind says there is some legacy stuff that Milltronics stopped supporting....but I think it's older than Centurian 7, so you may be alright.
I think their headquartered in Minnesota, and they do have a free tech support phone number. I'm sure you can google it.

Either way, sounds like you may have a line on a great situation.
Go see it run in his shop. Make sure the spindle and movements sound quiet/smooth.
Make sure the tool changer functions correctly.

My family moved to athens in '87. I went to Barnett Shoals Elem. - Clarke Middle - Cedar Shoals HS, and then Georgia Tech (always figured I go to UGA, but ended up wanting to study engineering, and with the hope scholarship and free tuition I couldn't say no to a bitter enemy with a great academic reputation).

Let us know how it progresses.
Carl

[Len Hoffman]

Hey Carl, the guys name is Ted. You know him somehow? Seems like a nice guy.

Calling Milltronic is a good idea. Think I'll do that.

One of my great regrets is that I passed up an oppurtunity to enroll in the mech engineering program at Ga Tech. in '87. The call of the road got to me and I travelled a lot for a few years before settling down to start my business. It's worked out well, but I can't help but wonder what if sometimes.

[laniak]

Yes, it must be the same Ted, and while he may not remember me, I've been in his shop back when I was just a pup with wide eyes for machine shops. There is no doubt he knows those machines up and down, and knows how to utilize them. You should definitely visit his shop if you can.
I've never had any professional dealings with him, so I can't speak to his overall integrity, but I wouldn't doubt for a second that he's a very bright guy. Had lunch with him and an Athens Tech instructor a number of years back at Dolce Vita downtown. Talking about his ROM vehicle, as I recall.

Seems you have done well without the GT experience. I think the 90's/00's really overvalued college degrees, and we're shifting back to a society that realizes not everyone needs a degree to be successful. I am glad I went, but I'd be a fool if I thought it's the only way to be successful. The key thing is you have to be bright. The education can highlight that, but it can't create it from a blank slate.

[Len Hoffman]

Carl I'm sure it's the same Ted. He's built a one man submarine that he plans to peddle across the atlantic in! I will ask about his ROM.

I'm going over to his shop Fri to look at the machine. It's a RW15. I talked to Brian at Milltronics (seems like a very nice guy). He says they're pretty durable machines. Told me to get the serial # and he'll research the unit for me. He said if it has the 10" monitor screen to make sure that console is all intact as they are a few K$ to replace, but other than the typical things you'd check for on a manual machine that's about it. They still support the machine with parts and service, so that's good.

Anything you can think of I should look for?

Ted's motivated to sell the machine as he doesn't use it much and needs the money for other projects. Aside from the price and how close our businesses are to each other one thing that really appeals to me is he's willing to swap aluminum tig welding lessons for programming lessons. I've been welding cast aluminum since '87, he's been doing programming since '85.

And as for formal engineering training, your right about it not being the panacea it was once thought to be. I've known some real engineer duds over the years. But I've known some seriously sharp engineers who really made the most of the education. Sometimes wish I'd knuckled down and gotten that degree.

[laniak]

Anything happening on this???
Hope it works out for you.

[Len Hoffman]

Anything happening on this???
Hope it works out for you.

Yes, but slowly.
The machine is still in the original owners shop. I have had a super busy spring (leading into a super busy summer) and have not had time to move it to my shop.
But a rigging crew will be bringing it over June 4. I need to do some paint work and get it trammed, wired etc. Very soon I expect to be posting a lot of questions!

I'm very jazzed about getting this on line and putting it to use. Big learning curve ahead for this old manual guy!

[Len Hoffman]

Hi everyone. Thought I'd pick this back up.
Moved the machine into place in my shop wed. Like I mentioned before what a mess! I don't think it was ever cleaned. The cabinet interior has coatings of rust and rancid coolant. And don't even get me started on the coolant tank! Whoa!

Anyway, we leveled it super nice as outlined by Milltronics. Zero level change through the entire Y axis travel.

Fri morning threw the breaker and homed the machine. It threw an "excess" code for Y and aborted the homing. Quickly figured out that the center two Y way covers had somehow locked together and were not allowing any further travel. Got them off and homed it. Ran a couple of programs through air and it's super smooth and quiet.

We have a lot of cosmetic issues to deal with as well as plenty of cabinet mechanical issues. For example the bottom door rollers were rusted and no longer rotating and the top slide is missing half the bearings. Instead of gliding the door is dragged closed and just sort of flops into place. Usable, but annoying. I have a hunch that that's going to cost some $ to restore to original working condition with new parts.

Other than the tool change switch on the spindle column everything else seems to be working. I'm seriously looking forward to getting this thing cleaned and ready for service so I can accelerate my learning curve.
I'll be coming back with lots of questions very soon I'm sure.

[Spiker604]

Hey Len,

Just wondering where in Greenville your shop is, I'd like to see it. My wife and I are visiting our son in Simpsonville and I have worked for a machine tool builder for 30 years and have a lot of Fanuc experience. Just curious, may be looking to relocate to the area soon but not sure where all the machine shops are in the area.

Mike