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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > HURCO > Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3
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  1. #1
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    Cool Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Well long time sine I have been on here. Built a plasma table that eventually found a life as a wood router back in 2006. Amazing how time flies. I managed to purchase a new toy.

    Attachment 229640

    I am not sure whats under the plastic bag, or the box, also not sure why the paint is black where the cable runs next to the head, if its welded or something that would be a bummer. cant see anything more till i get to see it in person on Saturday

    Half the reason I tried to get it was posts on here about pretty simple conversions. I hope I bought the right tooling. I have no clue about any of it. For what I paid it may just go to scrap. But I hope I can reserect it.

    I have skimmed thorugh some threads for hours and many discuss the running on 220 single but there is a mystical diagram around I cant seem to find. I am hoping others share and help me through all this.

    I already have gecko 320x's i got from a friend for free after his mill project went south. I hope to document things as good as I can to help others. These are really cheap machines and if the conversion is as easy As i hope they would be great candidates for allot of people.

    Here is the tooling i bought. I read they were kwik switch 200 on the machine. I rolled the dice figuring i can sell the pieces on ebay.

    Attachment 229642


    So to start the thread:

    I pick it up on Sat. not sure how the rigger is going to get it on a car trailer with wheel wells but we will see. In-case some are wondering here is the cost so far.

    Mill $152
    Rigging $200
    Tooling $180

    Auction Fees $33

    ____________________________
    Total $565

    No for some this may seem high for the risk, But I know i can get prob 300 or more scrapping, its about 140 miles from me so some fuel. I am hoping since i got the geckos for free maybe i can be running for less than 1k. We shall see


    Thanks

    Tim

  2. #2
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    DON'T SCRAP IT? If you decide its too much work I'll take it. Well atleast if you aren't to far away anyway.

    Most VFDs 5hp (3.7kw) or smaller will run on a single phase or a 3 phase input. They are derated about 30% when run on single phase. There is no real special trick to hooking it up. Pick two input legs and hookup the two wires of your single phase. Some VFDs specify which ones those have to be. Run 2 hots, common and a ground to your cabinet, and you will have 220V for the spindle and the transformer most of us used to create our own DC power supply, and you will have 120V from either hot to common for anything you want to run on 110V like your computer and monitor. I wired a power strip inside my top cabinet so I could plug in things like the oiler timing clock, 5V power supply for my BOB, power for my spindle brake valves, etc.

    Also, not all KMB1s are the same. Different layout, different spindle motor, etc. The first thing you need to do is see what you have.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  3. #3
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Welcome to the KMB1 family!
    What a great price you ended up with on yours. Looking forward to see it come together.
    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  4. #4
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Thanks FannBlade, I have been reading your and Bob's threads, i think i even printed them

    Here is my plan once I get it settled into its spot.


    First I figure I will turn it on on single phase. So I am hoping one of you guys will have that wiring diagram I have been looking for. This way i can see if it functions.

    If this doesnt work out then i giure i will run the servos from a car battery to make sure things move. Then proceed with the gutting and installation of the gecko 320x's i got from a freind.

    So the thing i will have to figure out is:

    0: 220 single phase wiring

    1: The encoders I hear some can reuse. But perhaps without the finite of newer encoder.

    2: Making the current power supply de-volaged for the geckos (hoping for someinput once i get pictures of cabinet)

    Also I kinda wanted to make it run on single cause, parts are crazy expensive on ebay, i figured if i could prove it works i could sell stuff on ebay to pay for the rest or maybe even make the amchine free

    Thanks

    Tim

  5. #5
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Ok guys got it home, Unload tomorrow then plans on how to proceed. Here are some photos then some questions if anyone is able to answer them. I apologize if some questions may sound unintelligent in advance

    Attachment 230128

    I found out is has a freq drive installed other than the factory, I am trying to tell if it is single phase in, it says input 208,230,440, let me know what you think. Tomorrow i am going to see how its wired closer.

    Attachment 230130

    Attachment 230132

    Also it has this, which i assume converts a 0-10v signal to switch the factory relays

    Attachment 230134

    Also it has this emulator, which i assume makes it so the ancient pc i got with the machine can drip feed it instead of a cassette

    Attachment 230136

    There was one card on the lower cabinet missing and was in a box, I assume maybe when it stopped working this card was the reason. It is the closest to the door card.

    Attachment 230138

    Also got some files with cardstock info and some cassettes, Post more in a minute

    Attachment 230140



    So for now what I am thinking is get it going on single phase, (unless that missing card would make it not work at all to test the axis and see how it looks. Then decide on a mach3 retrofit or not. Let me know any input on the single phase hookup and any opinions or ideas. I hope to document everything really well for anyone else wanting to try this

    Thanks

    Tim

    Looking forward to everyones input

  6. #6
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Well I just fired up the PC that came with it that I assume he used to program the machine through the emulator, I assume the master is loaded on the chip since there is no connection on the board for the tape. unless i am missing something in my reading so far. pc is doing checkdisk and i am hoping it boots up. Since it would be nice to make a backup of the systems the guy had including the emulator software etc.


    Also from the board number 415-0055-007 that was not in the machine, i assume it is a b model control., so that will tie into wether to convert or not also.

    I assume at this point i am still going to see if i can get it to turn on then, strip it and do a conversion to mach3, selling what parts i can on ebay to interested folks.

    Gonna be playing all night i assume

  7. #7
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Just getting things together, Located Buddy and showed my friend who is a master electricitian and it all made sense to him about the single phase running. Hope to have more pics and updates this weekend

  8. #8
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Winter wont stop here in Minnesota. Hope to get to project soon. SO far just research.

  9. #9
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Same here...mid 70's Sat-Sun then wake up to 28 this morning and snow yesterday!!
    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  10. #10
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Great deal on it! The tooling is worth far more than that. Of course it would never make sense to buy something this large for the parts and tooling. Eventually you'd have to get rid of the carcass and that would be a PITA. But this is a moot point. The machine looks like a nice candidate for a retrofit, which I'm in the middle of too. I have photos but I have to find where to stage them so that I can post the pics.

  11. #11
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Oh,
    Yes, you can get a Hurco KMB1 to run single phase (in its native form) pretty easily. I did it for years. And the original control is actually pretty nice with its conversational interface. However, computers have come a long long way and the number of connectors in the control is problematic. I had problems with mine tripping out periodically and it drove me nuts, hence the reason I decided to embark on a retrofit (going well). The machine is a good foundation for some neat options and, as I previously stated, you got a good deal with it (all tooled up).

    The emulator made it so you didn't need a tape drive; you used a computer instead. BUT, you still needed to load a master, unless you had a fairly rare after-market board that had the firmware built into EPROM (actually have one that I"ll be selling when I get to it). That is a nice option but if you use your machine infrequently.

    The only things in the machine that are 3 phase are the spindle and coolant pump. The latter is easily replaced (if it is even there....) and the former works off the VFD. Most lower power VFDs can also function as phase converters. Internally what they do is build up a high voltage DC bus from the incoming legs. They then synthesize the frequency and voltage of the three output legs. Pretty simple concept... But the important thing is that DC bus. As long as they can get enough stability there to generate the output, they don't technically need three phases coming in.... So having it becomes a function of the motor driven (too much power and the internal circuitry cannot handle not having the third input) and software... The latter would sense the input and simply not allow the driver to run without all three phases. My guess, however, is that you won't have that problems.... Sooooo, taking all that useless information to heart, converting the whole machine to single phase is actually pretty simple.

  12. #12
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Thanks for the new posts guys, Today was finally 55 but wow what a long winter, Worked on house hoping next week to get her to fire up.

    Mr metric, is there anywhere i can get a master to load?

    thanks

  13. #13
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    I spent most of today working on my retrofit. I have been mounting the components and such... I really do need to post some pictures on that thread.

    But, to answer your question, yes! Midwest CNC used to have the masters on their website. I think that I might have them as well, but I'd have to look. I know I *used* to have them all but I suffered a rather catastrophic hard disk crash and it is possible that those files were some that were lost. (time passes...) I just checked the Midwest site and it appears as though they don't have them posted there anymore. <sigh> I'm sure that they could send them to you though. Why don't you try that before I scour through my archives. If you fail then I'll do the digging.

    Alan

  14. #14
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    ok thanks Alan


    Tim

  15. #15
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Sorry.... I sent you in the wrong direction. It wasn't Midwest, it was AMTS (Hurco Mill - Autobend, Parts Service Sales Repair INDEX) that had the files. If you go there, click on the 'Download' section and you can select the machine for which you want to download a master. Be aware that a B and BX control are different! B machines don't have as high resolution and cannot support nice features such as Calculation Assist, etc. If you need help getting your machine running, please feel free to contact me. I have all the manuals and associated paraphernalia. I also have a ton of parts that I've pulled off of my machine, including a board that has the masters build into it, etc (but that is for a Bx so you'd have to upgrade).

    The Hurco is a nice setup if you don't want to sit down at a computer and build a part on CAD, then convert to CAM to generate G-Code. Personally, I liked my Hurco a lot. It was the perfect machine for the prototype garage. That said, I was tired of mine stopping on me due to noise in connectors, hence the motivation for my retrofit. Sadly, however, the Mach conversions everyone is doing really fall short in the conversational department. Yes, there are some 'block' modules that have attempted to build some functions, but it comes far short (when I looked at it) of the way the Hurco works, despite the fact that the machine is old and obsolete. If I had unlimited space, I'd have loved to have rebuild the Hurco, keeping it in its native form, and have a Mach/LinuxCNC conversion sitting next door.... But, I don't have that room. For what it is worth, I'm going down the LinuxCNC route because I wanted to keep the analog servo setup and Mach is strictly step/direction. Yes, I know there are drivers out there that will take the encoders as feedback and accept step/direction, but I'm also not happy with the stability of Mach or the fact that it runs on a PC. I'd rather stick in the Linux world on a kernel that is truly RT. And, there are lots of complaints about Mach stability too. Ironically, though, most don't seem to realize that Mach is actually built on EMC (same as LinuxCNC). Mach is primarily a UI front end and a conversion to the PC (the pulse generator and interrupt stuff is Mach). Well, I won't dither on about all that... Both are good programs, but I'm personally glad to see someone keeping the Hurco as it was.... It really was, and is, a nice setup.

    Alan

  16. #16
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Mr.Metric how is the retrofit going I am working on a KMB1 and want to see what you guys have done with yours PLEASE if you have any pics and or updates on your build post them.
    Thanks

  17. #17
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    running single phase is definitely possible. I did it for years and it isn't that hard to do. You basically just get rid of the isolation transformer in the back of the machine. The machine itself was pretty much all single phase anyhow, so it is just moving a few wires around to get everything on the 220V. In fact, the old parajust VFD drive was running single phase when Hurco originally sold the machine new....

    I'm not sure that it is worth getting it working though, especially if you don't have the masters. The reason I say this, is that I don't know how much more you'll get for the parts even if you validate they are working. Plus, I suspect a buyer would be much happier knowing the parts were taken out of a machine that was up and running for an extended period of time as opposed to just 5 minutes. Just my 2 cents... Sure, 5 minutes is great to know, but the real question is how much market is there for these boards anyhow, regardless of their operable state?

    Alan

    P.S. I'll try to post this weekend if I get a chance... I've made huge progress... I'll post in the thread I started, though, so I don't clutter this one up.

  18. #18
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    I don't know about that. There were three (3) motors on my machine that were native 3 phase operation. The spindle itself. The cooling fan on the spindle, and the coolant pump inside the base. It came with a Mitsubishi VFD for the spindle, and I put a KB VFD on the cooling fan. I used a single phase coolant pump. I don't know about when they first sold this machine. Mine has a date written in magic marker on the inside of one of the cabinet doors from 1982.

    I put all my pulled boards on Ebay for a while a couple years ago. I tossed most of them in the dumpster a couple months ago.

    There is more demand for the hard parts. Ballscrews, servo motors, quills, etc.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  19. #19
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    Well, if there is one thing I've learned about Hurcos, it is that there are minor variations. That said, I should clarify a bit.... The spindle motors are always 3-phase. However, the VFD feeding them is often not. Every original Parajust drive that I've seen has definitely been single phase 220V. Fundamentally, a VFD generates a DC high voltage bus that is then use to manufacture the 3-phase output, so 3-phase input is not necessarily required.

    I'm very surprised that the cooling fan on your machine was a 3-phase unit. Most of them are just normal boxer fans that are 120VAC (single phase). As for the coolant pump... yes, that is almost always 3-phase but the coolant system is almost irrelevant IMHO. To replace that with something that is single phase is pretty trivial. However, you bring up an important point though regarding the coolant pump. Even though it is easily addressed, if someone isn't paying attention then, indeed, they will run into issues with that.

  20. #20
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    Re: Hurco KMB1 To Mach 3

    There are control cabinet muffin fans that are 1120VAC single phase, but my spindle motor housing contains two motors. The spindle motor and a separate cooling fan motor. I had to open up the housing to figure out why I had six wires coming out of it.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

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