[Tim Schoenhals]

I'm new to this world and just dove into all the knowledge here last night after finding this Kickstarter campaign:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...rce-cnc-router

It looks like it will end up being funded. What are your thoughts on this kit as a basic starter build into CNC? Just based on what I've read today I notice that it doesn't have fully supported rails... What else are you guys seeing?

Thanks for any direction/help!

[ger21]

I didn't read anything on the Kickstarter page (other than the first few lines), but my first impression is that it's a far cry from what most members here would consider "high performance".
It's just another deviation on the same basic, entry level machines that people have been building for over 10 years.

10 years ago, most members here were starting out with similar machines to that one. Today, most of the members here are building bigger, and much stronger machines.

I can't tell you if that's the right machine for you. There are probably thousands of people who would be perfectly happy with a machine like that. Look at all the websites that are part of the "maker movement", and you'll find a lot of machines like that.
People that want to do real, productive work will have no interest at all in a machine like that.

[CarveOne]

I agree with Gerry, the first and most important thing is to use fully supported rails of some kind. Less flexing is always better. Many of the small machines with 24" (and less) rails can do nice work with unsupported rails but they tend to use trim routers, Dremel tools, or small spindles - and make light cuts. There is nothing special about that particular design by today's CNC home-build standards. Keep looking around this site in the build logs and see what many of us have done. If it doesn't flex too much, it may shake too much, or it just isn't big enough. Don't think that your first build will be the "be-all, end-all.machine". You'll find all sorts of reasons to upgrade it or replace it with something else after you find out its weak features by actually using it for a while.

[aarggh]

What are you wanting to achieve with CNC Tim? This will determine the suitability of the machine. I wouldn't buy a machine like that myself, but looking at it, as a complete ready to run package, it looks a lot better than many I've seen for more dollars. Especially with good ballscrews instead of the usual ACME threaded, or even trapezoidal, rods and plastic nuts like many much more expensive ones use.

I would say if your wanting to use it for hobby or very light production purposes, e.g; small signs, engraving doors/panels, speaker enclosures, that sort of stuff, I think it should perform more than adequately based on what I see there. I couldn't see anywhere that said what the frames made of, it looks like it could be enamelled MDF or plastic, that would be my main concern so far as maintaining accuracy over time, and wear/tear.

But, over the years I have seen many far worse designed machines, using inferior components, for much more than what that unit is selling for. So far as the software goes, you couldn't go better than Vectric for most general purpose use.

cheers, Ian

[ger21]

Actually, it's probably a decent deal at $650. I doubt you could build something similar for less than $1000.

But don't believe that your getting a "high performance" machine. Here's a few reasons why:

It's made from melamine with what I'm assuming to be a particle board core (Looks like it's edgebanded with standard pvc edgebanding). They claim this to be superior to MDF, but imo, it's no better than a painted MDF machine.

They use a custom built driver board. They do this for cost savings, not performance. Drives from Gecko or Leadshine will give far better performance, although at a much higher price.

While a lot of people might think that the ballscrews are far superior to acme, there's a bit more to it. 5mm pitch ballscrews are slow, and are part f the reason this machine is limited to 80ipm. Precision acme leadscrews are just as accurate, and can provide better performance for the same price. They just need a little more motor power, due to their lower efficiency. Also, mounting the ballscrew and motor to a small block of particle board leads to flex and rigidity issues.

All unsupported rails will flex. It uses 20mm rails, but they span a long distance.


Bottom line?
As a basic starter kit to learn about CNC, it's probably a very good deal.
It's not the fastest, or the most rigid, but it should be a usable machine. I think the fact that it's limited to a rather slow 80ipm, help to minimize some of the shortcomings. Slow movement results in lower forces, so flex should be much less of an issue.
It won't take long, though, before you realize that 80ipm is sloooow. Some people have no problem waiting (and waiting, and waiting) But most will want to go faster, and it usually only takes a few days to realize that.
So, again, a good deal at the price, but a far cry from "high performance".

[aarggh]

Melamine? Yuck! That's pretty crap, even if it's HMR which is a lot more stable, but it's still more affordable than most machines out there, especially given the high value of the bundled software, so I guess the first thing you'd do then would be use it to cut out parts to replace on the machine!

cheers, Ian

[victorofga]

just read carefully they writing..


The Creation Station can cut foam, wood, plastic, aluminum, brass, stone, ceramic, tile, glass - anything softer than steel!


the country I living, the ceramic and glass certain way harder than steel... so you might choose country to using, where steel is harder than ceramic :-)

turning seriously,

there are 4 backers with 1250.. if you taking off the colt router, and the software price, the left approximately 500 an acceptable price for this ...

since shark is """accepted""" as cnc router, I think this also deserve that title :-)

one thing anyway noticeable, they made fixed gantry ... I think they could save one rail placing on the center and table sliding on two block like shopbot buddy :-)

[Tim Schoenhals]

I've really enjoyed reading through a lot of build threads on this site and I have learned a TON! I really appreciate the info from all of you.
I will initially be using my machine for hobby CNC projects on hard wood and possibly aluminum.

The more I've read, the more I feel like this is a great deal for a learning tool and possibly even for use in building a more rigid and versatile machine. Since you can modify your Kickstarter pledge amount all the way up until the very end of the campaign, I went ahead and did it thinking that if I changed my mind in the next 17 days, I can at lower my pledge to just $5.

The way I see it:
$1149 Package cost
-$599.99 VCarve Pro
-$100.00 Bosch Colt
=$450 actual cost for the 24"x24" CNC

I really don't see how these guys are making money on this... they must have a great partnership with Vectric. Worst case scenario, I would have VCarve Pro (which I would have bought anyway), a good little palm router, and a pile of motors and parts to use on other projects for potentially less money than I could have bought them for anyway. I just sent a message to the Creation Station folks asking for info on the motors... I'll post the info if they respond.

Well... back to diving deeper into CNCZone!

[hjl4]

Along with what most are saying, the big turn off is parallel port communication.
That is a big turn off for me, as it is a limiting factor when upgrading your software or need for speed.
I wouldn't invest in the kickstarter program. It's an old idea and old design, like Ger21 said, most here have surpassed or improved on the design.
Melamine is over glorified MDF. It looks OK, but structurally offers little in the way of rigidity.
Waste of money, especially if you plan on doing any kind of serious work with it.
Kickstarter is full of these "hand out" beggers, looking at making a profit from people's ignorance.
If it was a revolutionary idea, then Yes, invest. But this is same old, same old.

[Tim Schoenhals]

Thanks for your thoughts hjl4. I'll definitely keep all of that in mind.

"...the big turn off is parallel port communication.
That is a big turn off for me, as it is a limiting factor when upgrading your software or need for speed."

Although there is no guarantee that it will happen, an optional USB interface is something they are planning on making available... along with "headless routing" and 4th axis support and a dust boot.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...r/posts/910833

[ger21]

They chose the parallel port to keep costs down. And there's nothing wrong with using the parallel port. Far mor people here are running their machines through a parallel port than those using USB or ethernet controllers, which typically add $150 or more to the cost, with little benefit on a low cost machine like this.

A dust shoe is mandatory, as you'll find out immediately.

Again, you can't beat the price of this for a learning machine. But it makes no sense to add any options to it, or try to upgrade it. All the options in the world still leave you with an entry level machine.

[Tim Schoenhals]

Totally understood on not trying to upgrade this guy Gerry.

The only thing I had been researching was modifying the x-axis by swapping to open linear ball bearings like these bearings Then trying to support the x - rails with bolts screwed through the bottom deck like this guy did. If that wouldn't be worth the $35 cost I totally get it.

In other news they just got back to me on the motors and they are using 270oz/in Nema 23's.

[ger21]

That's a lot of time and effort for not much gain. The gantry rails are where you'll see most of the flexing.

[BuckNaked31]

If folks who come out with these kickstarter kits would come here first, there would be much better kits on kickstarter: )

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk 2

[hjl4]

I agree about the extra cost of USB or Ethernet control, and not much gain. But try to do 3D profiling with parallel port interface and now you start to realize why it is the way of the dinosaur.
Speed is important.
Doing 3D profiles or Surfaces, complex geometries= small step overs and with 3 axes in motion at once. To add more complexity add a fourth axis and Mach3 will come to a crawl.
That's just my experience, maybe you know different.

[ger21]

Sounds like you have a PC that isn't very good with the Mach3 parallel port driver.

But try to do 3D profiling with parallel port interface and now you start to realize why it is the way of the dinosaur.

2D or 3D profiling should make no difference to Mach3, and should run exactly the same.

Doing 3D profiles or Surfaces, complex geometries= small step overs and with 3 axes in motion at once. To add more complexity add a fourth axis and Mach3 will come to a crawl.

Again, this shouldn't matter.

Say you have Mach3 set to a 25Khz kernel speed. Mach3 basically gives you the ability to output 25,000 steps, every second, for 6 axis. Whether you're using 1 axis at a time or 5 axis, mach3 is still doing the same things internally.

I run 3D g-code with .002" stepovers at 190ipm on a $20, 1Ghz PIII, with no issues at all.

[hjl4]

Hmmm, Ok. My kernel speed was set to 45KHz. How did that happen.
I will try the new settings at 25KHz. I run 1.2GHz Pentium III .
Hopefully that will speeds things up.
So for a 'Hobby' CNC the kickstarter unit is fine. But anything more, and look for something else. Especially if you're going to get into metals.
You have any experience with PLL(Phase Lock Loops) Gerry? Just asking as the info that is out there is pretty vague.

[ger21]

Any PIII is really borderline when running Mach3. 45Khz is probably more than a 1.2Ghz PIII can handle.
You mentioned having trouble with 3D toolpaths. With a low spec PC like a PIII, it's very important that you turn off the toolpath display when you're running large g-code files. If you don't, you'll often see stuttering, and pauses during motion. This isn't a parallel port issue, but Mach3's inefficient toolpath display that uses far too many CPU resources.

I don't even know what PLL is??

[BuckNaked31]

If you have your motors running in a reasonable RPM range 25kHz is fine. I'm running mine with 5 start screws and my machine will run way faster than I would ever care to cut. There's a lot that goes into designing a machine, there's no one answer to everything.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk 2

[hjl4]

Ok, thanks for the help.